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BOUDICEA

Warrior of the People
Articles Posted: 183  Links Seeded: 63
Member Since: 8/2009  Last Seen: 2/24/2012

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Eliminating Corporate Personhood - throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:40 AM EST
politics, constitution, scotus, cu, campaign-reform
By Boudicea
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In order to truly understand the concept of Corporate Personhood one must first give up the uninformed and ignorant notion that it began with the Supreme Court decision in Citizens United, and that it only applies to campaign spending.  In  fact, the concept of corporate personhood was decided and confirmed by the Supreme Court many times and for many reasons over the last two centuries. 

The central issue in dispute is the degree of power a government can exercise over a corporate entity and goes all the way back to 1790 where the Supreme Court of Virginia first limited the authority of government to interfere in the internal workings of William & Mary College.  The Rev John Bracken v. The Visitors of Wm & Mary College (7 Va. 573; 1790 Supreme Court of Virginia)

The first case the Supreme Court of the United States decided was Dartmouth College v Woodward in 1819 where it ruled that corporations have the same rights as individuals to enter into contracts.  It was, defacto, the beginning of "corporate personhood".  If a corporation cannot enter into a contract, how are they supposed to exist? 

The rights of corporations were affirmed again and again - in Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts v. Town of Pawlet, (1823) and Munn v. Illinois (94 U.S. 113 (1876))

Then in 1886, the Court gave 14th Amendment protections to corporations in the Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific Railroad Company decision.  The case involved taxation and equal protection, and though the words "corporate personhood" weren't actually used, the Court affirmed that the wording of the 14th Amendment did not exclude corporations from "equal protection". 

Additional Court cases have been decided over the years as well - ALL affirming that corporations WERE to be treated as "persons" under the law.

So without the equal protection to corporations afforded by the Supreme Court REPEATEDLY over the last 200 years, what could change?  Government involvement in corporate matters.  Legalizing discrimination about where corporations may locate or operate.  Limitation of their ability to enter into contracts.  Elimination of due process -- allowing government to shut down corporations on a whim.  Unfair taxation, limitation of their rights to free speech - yes, even involvement of the Government in RELIGIOUS corporations.  Eliminating these protections to corporations could result in the collapse of our economy as we know it.

Imagine if the government were permitted to close down a corporation on a mere suspicion that one of their products is unsafe, or on an anonymous tip that there was wrong-doing in management.  Imagine stripping away rights which allow business to stay in business.  Imagine a world where corporations were given no rights to defend themselves in court. 

The following article tells you exactly what could change if corporations didn't have "personhood".  And I can tell you that, although the author feels it would be a GOOD thing, I think it's a very slippery slope toward abolition of all corporate entities.  From the article:

Without the protection of the 14th Amendment, corporations could be purposefully discriminated against in legislation. It would even become possible to discriminate against particular types and sizes of corporations...Without personhood the due process used for corporations could be different than the due process used for individuals or unincorporated businesses  http://www.iiipublishing.com/afd/changes.htm

I don't agree with the author's conclusions in the least, but in the interest of fairness, people need to investigate both sides of the argument.

So now lets get down to it - Corporate Personhood is NOT the problem - despite all you people out there screaming it needs to go away.  The PROBLEM is Campaign Finance Reform. In Citizens United, the SCOTUS did NOT establish Corporate Personhood, they affirmed decisions going back to 1790.  In Citizens United, the SCOTUS ruled that with regard to campaign financing spending (a/k/a free speech), ALL CORPORATIONS MUST BE TREATED EQUALLY.  This means that the exception for Media spending which was included in the McCain-Feingold Act (2002) was Unconstitutional - it did not treat all corporations equally. 

We have a decision to make - do we ALLOW this unchecked campaign spending to continue?  Do we try to structure a different campaign spending law that treats everyone equally?  Or do we move forward with the ONLY TRUE OPTION - a Constitutional Amendment that leaves the concept of Corporate Personhood INTACT and addresses the real issue - campaign spending?

I HOPE that you will all do more research and stop with the "Corporate Personhood is EVIL" meme which simply affirms that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.  Address the PROBLEM directly - campaign spending, NOT "corporate personhood"

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  • Public Discussion (158)
Boudicea

This was written to encourage educated conversation. Please do not resort to insults or other CoH violations. Lets stay on topic and have a good discussion, please.

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:48 AM EST
Elaine-1503791

So without the equal protection to corporations afforded by the Supreme Court REPEATEDLY over the last 200 years, what could change? Government involvement in corporate matters. Legalizing discrimination about where corporations may locate or operate. Limitation of their ability to enter into contracts. Elimination of due process -- allowing government to shut down corporations on a whim. Unfair taxation, limitation of their rights to free speech - yes, even involvement of the Government in RELIGIOUS corporations. Eliminating these protections to corporations could result in the collapse of our economy as we know it.

Including the gov't deciding a corporation is "too big to fail". If a company fails it should not be bailed out by the tax payers, it should fail and suffer the consequences of their bad decisions.

We have a decision to make - do we ALLOW this unchecked campaign spending to continue?

This is a huge issue because unchecked campaign spending is influence peddling on a grand scale. Unfortunately our politicians and our political system is too easily bought.

  • 16 votes
#1.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:59 AM EST
Boudicea

We have to pinpoint the PROBLEM before we can elmininate it, Elaine! And I know we agree that MORE government control over business is not the answer.

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:37 AM EST
Daniel A. Hallo

There is no baby in the bathwater.

It’s an old man in a diaper and he’s been sucking on the tit of the public like a tick for to long!

  • 16 votes
#1.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST
etva

Including the gov't deciding a corporation is "too big to fail". If a company fails it should not be bailed out by the tax payers, it should fail and suffer the consequences of their bad decisions.

I think this is an important point, regarding the issue of "equality" in law, but as Boudicea pointed out in her previous article, the issue must be challenged legally, before the SCOTUS can address it, and such challenges take a great deal of money, time and commitment.

We have to pinpoint the PROBLEM before we can elmininate it,

I agree with this, Boudicea, and I think your article does a fantastic job of eliminating the propaganda, and focusing on the real issues. I don't disagree that the "issue" is campaign finance, but I think the real "problem" is more complicated.

I think the system has been corrupted and no longer functions they way it was historically expected to. I think the "system" assumes that the majority of elected officials will function with the best interests of all in mind, rather than the narrow interests of a segment of the population.

Yet we see that Congress has not addressed the issue of campaign finance reform effectively, perhaps because it may not be in their personal best interests. Instead we see media and propaganda effectively directing the public outrage to other points, and the real issue of campaign finance reform is lost in the flak.

  • 10 votes
#1.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:56 AM EST
Boudicea

etva, as always, you cut right through to the heart of the issue and I appreciate your excellent post.

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:29 PM EST
grumpy_jon

I HOPE that you will all do more research and stop with the "Corporate Personhood is EVIL" meme which simply affirms that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Address the PROBLEM directly - campaign spending, NOT "corporate personhood"

Most people, not being lawyers and/or Constitutional scholars, have no idea of what they are talking about in regards to the legalities of this issue. They are arguing, to which you did not address, that is fundamentally unfair to everyone else when a Corporation's money could be leveraged into power (through speech or any other means); even wealthy people usually don't have equal money power with many large corporations today.

The issue, addressed in Citizens United, was the interests of treating all parties equally. How can my voice, or your voice, be equal with a corporation that has billions of dollars in assets at it's disposal? Answer that question and you have answered the question of equality.

  • 6 votes
#1.6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:43 PM EST
gmross

First, the original meaning of Corporate person-hood was meant to keep the owners of the corporation from being sued by someone in the public sector, or by the government in the case of tax litigation, in this way the company gets sued not the person, this is what this law was meant for, not for buying and selling politicians, it has become corrupted by the SCOTUS decision and this needs to be rectified.

  • 7 votes
#1.7 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:59 PM EST
Boudicea

grumpy jon: you're right, of course. What most people fail to recognize (and I just did an article on Understanding the Supreme Court) is that once a SCOTUS makes a decision, it is NOT the end. the congress then has three options: a) re-write the law so that it is Constitutional, b) Amend the Constitution to get the result you desire or c) do nothing.

In the case of Citizens United, the Congress chose the third option - SOLELY on the basis of self-interest.

Instead of blaming the Supreme Court for the the decision, (which, incidentally was absolutely RIGHT), we should be blaming the Congress for not doing their job to address it.

  • 6 votes
#1.8 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:15 PM EST
eriq samson

I don't believe I have ever seen such a dishonest, semi-intelligent sounding lack of basic fundamental understanding of the reality.

CORPORATIONS EXIST BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT!

You have to incorporate within the laws of the state you are incorporating in (not federal, which is a big mistake in that corporations generally do interstate trade), pay those registration fees, etc. Why do you think corporations choose to incorporate in Delawar or New Jersey? Loosest laws of the states. Banks choose South Dakota? Loosest laws regarding bank fees and interest charged.

What the argument basically devolves down to is government should stay out of ... government!

This is an insane argument; no logic, just "reasonableness"; the entire premise of the article is foolishness

NOTE: gmross is right in that people incorporate so they can;'t be held liable for the consequences of their actions, just the corporation (for example your corporation can buy a bunch of stuff on credit, sell it to another of your corporations for pennies on the dollar, then go bankrupt with no assets while your new corporation has lots of inventory at rock bottom prices and YOU can not be held responsible for fraud without a major lawsuit that has to prove that the first corporation was never really run as a corporation but a sole proprietorship)

Someone gets injured because you violated OSHA laws? Just have the corporation go bankrupt and use another.

Poison the water used by million down river? Just have the corporation go bankrupt and use another.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As far as Citizens United, the deal is that people are barking up the wrong bush. Officers of a corporation cna not just spend money on what they want - they have to spend the stockholder's money on things that will produce a profit (including promoting the "brand") and donating to political campaigns does not do that. The officers are violating their "fiduciary responsibilities" and can be sued --- by stockholders

This last part is the key - the public has no standing (unless the public, through it's legal representative - the government - owns any stock). This could be remedies by the state governments requiring say 1% of all forms of stock as the price of registering the corporation (after all corporations only exist at the behest and protection of government) or - a better, long term solution, the federal government requiring a federal articles of incorporation and federal rules for any corporation involved in interstate commerce and requiring that 1% of each and every form of stock (voting, non0-voting, etc.) as the fee (which means any dividends accrue to the people of the US, would lower taxes!)

And, NO; citizens united was wrong - corporations do not have free speech rights, the people in them do (corporations do not vote and free speech is specifically tied to political speech which corporations are NOT incorporated to be involved in - in other words politics violates their government regulated existence

If you watch Supreme Court decisions most of them are really deciding a very minor point in law and ignoring the big question. Citizens united was one of these deciding a very minor point; it did not touch on corporate personhood nor on whether it was legal but on a constitutional issue assuming many other isues; which is why this was more of a political decision than a legal one

  • 7 votes
#1.9 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:31 PM EST
Boudicea

If you watch Supreme Court decisions most of them are really deciding a very minor point in law and ignoring the big question

That's right. Why? Obviously YOU understand NOTHING about what the SCOTUS is for. Therefore, I am going to suggest ONLY that you read my article from yesterday Understanding the Supreme Court. When you have something to say which is even remotely legally correct, we can converse.

  • 5 votes
#1.10 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:05 PM EST
Charlie Courtois

Boudicea,

I HOPE that you will all do more research and stop with the "Corporate Personhood is EVIL" meme which simply affirms that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Address the PROBLEM directly - campaign spending, NOT "corporate personhood"

Campaign spending needs to have limits, just like anything else in life. The politicians are not going to police themselves. The issue of "campaign spending" is totally self-serving and until we have some honest (how naive) people running things we will jawbone about this until the cows come home.

Washington is simply out of control...name an issue...and we will talk it to death, but take action that is followed-up and enforced? Doubt it!

  • 5 votes
#1.11 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:36 PM EST
Reply
Becks72

Allowing corporations to contribute to campaigns in unlimited amounts is wrong.
One of our most pressing problems in my mind is the costs associated with electing our politicians. Allowing unlimited contributions from unions, corporations or any other entity along with the length of campaigns. The result in allot of cases is the office goes to the highest bidder. A limit on campaign contributions by all parties and the length of campaigns is long over due. The present system is a detriment to democracy.

  • 14 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:02 AM EST
Boudicea

I agree wholeheartedly, Becks, but none of that will change with the elimination of "corporate personhood", because THAT is not the problem. The problem is campaign spending laws (or lack thereof)

  • 9 votes
#2.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:09 AM EST
Ripley8

corporations are not people.

corporations are made up of people who already have a say financially and a vote.

corporations have too much sway over politics as it is ... example being the oil industry threatening Obama over Keystone.

corporations , like religions , should be barred from any type of political arena.

  • 13 votes
#2.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:54 AM EST
Boudicea

Corporations have WAY too much sway over politics. However, getting rid of Corporate Personhood doesn't change that. The only thing that will CHANGE that fact is a Constitutional Amendment barring them for any political activity.

  • 8 votes
#2.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:56 AM EST
AmericanSage

Wouldn't a constitutional amendment barring them from political activity be discrimination? We, legally, aren't allowed to discriminate persons from partaking in political activity are we. So how would that amendment change anything? It would probably be thrown out before it ever got voted on.

    #2.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:16 PM EST
    Boudicea

    Yes it would. That is the point,American Sage. The reason for Constiutional amendments is to be able to address something which needs fixing that is NOT allowable under the Constitution. Once it is passed, the AMENDMENT becomes part of the Constitution, and thus, the law of the land - making this particular"discrimination" allowable.

    • 3 votes
    #2.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:31 PM EST
    eriq samson

    American sage - corporations exist solely to make money; they basically need amendments to state constitutions to ALLOW them to legally get involved in any way in politics (hence the "Non-profit" corporations called PAC's and Super-Pacs)

    SCOTUS never answered the basic fundamentals because, politically, that wasn't what they wanted to be involved in

    Corporations exist BECAUSE of governments, laws; and none of them specifically allows them to be involved in Politics because they have NO VOTE!

    NO, you aren't discriminating, you are enforcing the laws of incorporation in that state

    Boudicea - you demonstrate the basic misunderstanding of what a corporation IS (what "IS is); a state may at any time change the requirements for incorporation and explicitly remove the ability to engage in any political activity of any kind

    NO, corporations can not be equal; people do not need laws, government approval, to exist but corporations do

    • 3 votes
    #2.6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:44 PM EST
    Boudicea

    I'd like to point out here that State Constitutions which conflict with the Federal Constitution will not be enforceable.

    • 1 vote
    #2.7 - Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:04 PM EST
    Reply
    Marshall James

    Boudicea

    well done, I agree with your conclusion. I look forward to the responses....It should be fun.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:02 AM EST
    gmross

    I say do not allow any corporation or union to contribute to any politicians campaign over the amount of 1000 dollars and limit the campaign to six months before the election of the office being sought.

    • 8 votes
    Reply#4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:09 AM EST
    Marshall James

    I disagree on that.

    take RonPaul for instance...he is working against the media......so it is taking time...but his numbers are going up as people are educated on him and stop relying on the bias and undeducation of the media.

    no limit on time.

    you see...that is why...even though money works against those of us against the establishment...putting limits on spending would make it even harder.....especially when working against a biased media.

    that is what people dont get......putting limits on campaign spending...sounds good...but will just keep those in power in power....as then they wouldnt have to spend as much....and would still get the media bias....of who they support.

    those in power get free campaigning by the media.

    if you put a limit on campaign funding...you would need to put limits on the press.

    and that aint going to happen.

    think people think

    regulations always decrease competition.

    • 5 votes
    #4.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:44 AM EST
    Marshall James

    and I dont think people are putting the media into the equation...and how the media pushes for free certain candidates....on both sides.

    think people think.

    • 5 votes
    #4.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:54 AM EST
    Boudicea

    Marshall - you hit on EXACTLY the problem which was addressed by the Citizens United decision. the McCain-Feingold Act stopped ALL companies from campaign spending EXCEPT the worst offenders - The Media.

    • 6 votes
    #4.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:57 AM EST
    Marshall James

    right.

    so putting limits on campaing spending will just limit the potential for someone like Ron Paul to come about.

    Ron Paul has been a victim of campaign spending himself...but he doesnt want to end it...as he sees the implications of it.

    the government shouldnt be for the limitation of freedom..

    period.

    • 3 votes
    #4.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:06 AM EST
    etva

    if you put a limit on campaign funding...you would need to put limits on the press.

    Exactly, and I agree, it won't happen!

    • 4 votes
    #4.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:59 AM EST
    Reply
    wavesofgrain

    So without the equal protection to corporations afforded by the Supreme Court REPEATEDLY over the last 200 years, what could change? Government involvement in corporate matters. Legalizing discrimination about where corporations may locate or operate. Limitation of their ability to enter into contracts. Elimination of due process -- allowing government to shut down corporations on a whim. Unfair taxation, limitation of their rights to free speech - yes, even involvement of the Government in RELIGIOUS corporations. Eliminating these protections to corporations could result in the collapse of our economy as we know it.

    This is so true. Without the free enterprise/corporations, we would still be a third world country. They propelled us to the greates country in the world.

    • 6 votes
    Reply#5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:15 AM EST
    Boudicea

    waves - yep. We should not and cannot get rid of corporations, or even limit their equal protections- and it shouldn't even be an issue, because it's not the root problem. We need a Constitutional Amendment to eliminate corporate campaign spending.

    • 8 votes
    #5.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:27 AM EST
    Elaine-1503791

    We need a Constitutional Amendment to eliminate corporate campaign spending.

    I agree.

    • 7 votes
    #5.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:31 AM EST
    eriq samson

    Even more fundamental misunderstanding of reality

    We do NOT have free enterprise, we have PRIVATE enterprise. There is a very big difference

    NO, Corporations have nothing to do with free enterprise; even under communism they have corporations

    Free enterprise or corporations have nothing to do with our not being a third world country. Being on a continent very rich with resources and having very few competitors (you know, those pesky "native americans") for those resources does

    NO, business structure does not propel anyone to anything; that is completely ridiculous ion the face iof it

    Seriously; this is worse fanboyism than PC vs Mac, or Coke vs Pepsi;l not only do you demonstrate absolutely no understanding of the underlying reality but you emphatically repeat the rabid jingoism of the inheritors of great wealth as if it had any reality rather than the obvious delusional fantasies

    And, NO corporations will never have equal protections because they can never be equal - that is just flat insane. Corporations do not vote and exist only because of laws saying they can exist

    • 2 votes
    #5.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:11 PM EST
    Daniel A. Hallo

    Communism is better defined as the Right-Wing industrialization of human beings as resources of the State by a small despotic government of wealthy elite.

    As Montesquieu wrote in Spirit of the Laws, VI,c.2: "In republican governments, men are all equal; equal they are also in despotic governments: in the former because they are everything; in the latter because they are nothing." Thomas Jefferson: copied into his Commonplace Book.

    • 3 votes
    #5.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:07 PM EST
    Boudicea

    Daniel - completely off topic.

    • 2 votes
    #5.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:48 PM EST
    Daniel A. Hallo

    No it isn't.

    "We are free today substantially, but the day will come when our Republic will be an impossibility. It will be an impossibility because wealth will be concentrated in the hands of a few. A Republic cannot stand upon bayonets, and when the day comes, when the wealth of the nation will be in the hands of a few, then we must reply upon the wisdom of the best elements in the country to readjust the laws of the nation to the changed conditions." -- James Madison

    "All the capital employed in paper speculation is barren and useless, producing, like that on a gaming table, no accession to itself, and is withdrawn from commerce and agriculture where it would have produced addition to the common mass... It nourishes in our citizens habits of vice and idleness instead of industry and morality... It has furnished effectual means of corrupting such a portion of the legislature as turns the balance between the honest voters whichever way it is directed." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792.

    • 2 votes
    #5.6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:59 PM EST
    Reply
    hugh b

    Well I like your post it is wrong to assume people did not understand a lot of the history behind corporations.

    The CU decision during the recent economic debacle is more to blame for the reaction it evokes.

    I don't hate or want corporations to be eliminated. I want them to act legally and responsibly.

    My brain goes into override whenever I hear phrases like "greatest generation", "job creators", and anything with "military in it".

    Our jobs have gone overseas only in the interest of the growth of greed for these corporations. They avoid EPA rules, labor laws, and regulations.

    They have hidden the true costs of doing business by polluting, disposing of toxic waste, and by bailing out on all of us when it comes time to rebuild the infrastructure they have exploited to make their profits.

    The health insurance industry is the sole reason for the explosion of health care costs. There should be no profit motive in health care. And one could assume that there has been collusion between health care, the FDA, and pharms. The high health care costs are also one of the biggest issues that affect labor costs.

    If I dug a hole and put some toxic material in it to hide it, my guilt in doing so would overwhelm me because I know it is wrong.

    I state this example for the point of "conscience protection". When people are ordered to do all the wrong things they do their conscience is protected from feeling responsible and guilt for what they have done. It happens every day in a million different ways.

    Regulations, laws, oversight, and holding people accountable is necessary in the best interest of all of us.

    These corporations have proven consistently that they cannot be trusted. That their interest in "growth" supersedes their sense of responsibility and takes the conscience out of all the decisions they make.

    We don't have leaders. We have cowards that bow to ignorance, greed, and instant gratification.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:39 AM EST
    Boudicea

    Wow, hugh, thanks for the post, and while you bring up some interesting points, I don't see how you are tying that into corporate personhood. Care to elaborate? I'd like to keep this discussion on topic.

    • 3 votes
    #6.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:41 AM EST
    hugh b

    Your phrase Boudi, corporate personhood.

    Where is the conscience of the this corporate person? It doesn't exist. Just as in the case of what the military calls "leadership", accountability does not exist.

    So your "corporate person" is pathological and sociopathic. It has no sense of right and wrong and it has no regard for the society it is a part of as it conducts itself.

    They use their legal teams to avoid accountability. They use their corporate hierarchy to avoid accountability. They use their ability to affect markets and societies to coerce and threaten the very people they claim to, uh, support?

    It is very on topic. I thoroughly appreciate your views and have learned from you. I think much of our disagreement and/or conflict comes from our understanding of the words we use. And that is the at heart of communication. The ability to take the time to rationally explain our points of view. Thank-you for the opportunity.

    • 1 vote
    #6.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:11 AM EST
    Boudicea

    Corporate personhood is very much a valid LEGAL concept, not "sociopathic" in the least. Entities CREATED by the government must have the rights which were guaranteed to all.

    Find me a single person accused of a crime who did not use their "legal team to avoid accountability". Can I just say O.J. Simpson, here? It's not about legal avoidance of accountability - for THAT concept, as I have just pointed out - is taken all the time by individuals and corporations both.

    The question is WHY should we eliminate corporate personhood? What GOOD would it serve? What would it accomplish? I can't see much.

    • 4 votes
    #6.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:15 AM EST
    hugh b

    I never say eliminate corporate personhood.

    The reason I created the phrase conscience protection is to make my point.

    If I, me, myself, were guilty of a crime, I would like to think my integrity would force me to admit to it, not to get away with it.

    So much of what you SEEM to be talking about is the premeditated commitment of crimes and then the, what, right to avoid legal accountability?

    To live in society regardless of who you are or how big you are, you have got to live within the framework of laws.

    Laws, rules, regulations have been created to protect society from those that would abuse society.

    The fact that corporations have devoted such huge amounts of effort to protect themselves from accountability only makes my point.

    It SEEMS to me that you want to give them the benefit of the doubt I respect that. I on the other hand have been witness to all they get away with so I don't.

    • 2 votes
    #6.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:29 AM EST
    Boudicea

    PEOPLE have gotten away with far more crimes than corporations, hugh, but we would NEVER in a million years suggest that they be stripped of the right to a trial or the right to freedom of speech (even the Reprehensible Westboro Baptist Church showed us that)

    We can create all the laws we want, but when we do so and SPECIFICALLY say that corporations don't play on the same field, we are opening the door to strip specific segments of society from the same rights enjoyed by the rest of us. We give rights to non-citizens, but NOT to corporations? Doesn't make sense.

    • 5 votes
    #6.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:42 AM EST
    Anthony-1802249

    To disallow "Corporate Personhood" would be the overtaking, ie. nationalization, of business. The USSR, Venezuela, Cuba, China and more are examples of governments control over business and commanding how they operate. It looks good on paper, but in practice doesn't work as incentive deteriorates.

    Corporate personhood is the pinnacle of a structure of real people from Mom & Pop savings for retirement to union employee pensions, government employees pensions, IRAs, and bank CDs and money markets.. The stock market doesn't own or run corporations, it just moves money around. Corporate executives are representatives of the owners of the stock.

    Of course, it's more complicated than that and there's Doctorial degrees of study in business. This is why it is hard for uninformed people to grasp and easy to be a target for leftwing propaganda.

    • 5 votes
    #6.6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:23 PM EST
    merleliz

    Laws, rules, regulations have been created to protect society from those that would abuse society.

    Which might just work fine and did for a long time...were it not for the undeniable fact that at this point in our history. laws, rules and regulations are being created BY those that would abuse society.

    No one seems to have a problem with unions, political groups and special interest groups controlling the political process with campaign contributions...so therefore, in order to afford them equal rights under the law, corporations must have the same rights...otherwise, you are allowing one group to do what you deny to the other in the realm of elections.

    To me, a fairer system would be this:

    People must get a certain number of signatures to be allowed to run, or, in the alternative, be put forward by votes from their party officials.

    Once they do...everyone has the same amount to spend...they can collect donations from anyone they want, and must collect a certain amount to pay for minimum expenses...but once they have collected a certain amount...that's it. Donations collected above and beyond their limit would go towards paying off the national debt...and nothing else, but they could keep (and should keep) records of how much their campaign has done to pay it off.

    They must strictly account for what they have spent...down to the last penny for postage.

    They can have all the volunteers they want...but they can't pay them a dime, nor can anyone else pay them on their behalf. Volunteer activity cannot involve "free advertising" on the media in the form of political advertisements, but it can involve door to door campaigning, social media campaigning, giving "dinners" and "parties" for the candidates to meet people and make speeches...but everyone gets the same amount of TV time for debates and advertisements. Salaries to campaign workers would be a portion of their allotted spending limits.

    Completely level the playing field as far as financial contributions and political advertising goes...and then it's up to the candidate. They will have to convince people from debates and their positions on the issues to vote for them...and if they can't do that they shouldn't be in office anyway, because they are NOT representing their constituency.

    What do you think? Could it work? Would it stop all the influence peddlers from buying elections or is there a major loophole I have overlooked? (I don't really wake up until after 11:00...get up at 6:00, but don't WAKE up, you know?)

    • 5 votes
    #6.7 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:43 PM EST
    wavesofgrain

    Well said, merleliz.

    I also agree that under the guise of non-profit status, unions and NGO's, are donating an amazing largess to their candidate and parties. Corporations ordinarily pay a large amount of taxes in their communities, and supply jobs. Then we have unions, although say they separate the dues portion to report donations, who are not taxed on that money they collect. They also spend millions on protesting, advertising. etc...targeted for a political party. For instance, SEIU Trumka was the most frequent visitor to the White House. How were the expenses of his visits classified? This is a political expense in my book. Is that portion of travel, etc accounted for, portioned out per individual union member? And since we bailed out many unions, public and private with our tax dollars, are they using my tax dollars to support candidates I dislike? Where's my refund as an opt-out?

    Then we have those hundreds of Soros NGO's who's sole existence is to create a permanent democratic majority. As they exist as non-profits, I assume they pay no taxes. And what have they contributed to the GDP or the government "bank" that supports so many that do NOT pay any taxes that we support? As they are essentially a political group, this would mean our government, allowing them to claim non-profit-tax-free, is giving them cash by not taxing them for their activities and cash given to them.

    I think we need major campaign reform in those areas, as well.

    • 5 votes
    #6.8 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:31 PM EST
    Reply
    Better Careful

    I'd like to see changes in the law making it impossible for corporate officers to hide inside corporate law. If these people behave badly, let's hold them responsible for their actions. Germany has this sort of corporate law, where officers are not immune from prosecution. Corporations are not people; without people running them, making the decisions, doing the work, and reaping the rewards, corporations become meaningless. Corporations only behave badly when the people making the decisions to behave badly carry out their plan of action.

    Enough with the hiding and harming. Let's hold the people responsible for their actions.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#7 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:44 AM EST
    Boudicea

    Better Careful - that is already done. It's called "Piercing the Corporate Veil" and it is used in situations where individuals blatantly broke the law behind a corporate shield. Stockholders may also be held liable in some instances.

    • 3 votes
    #7.1 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:17 PM EST
    Reply
    hugh b

    and equal protection, absurd

    their huge amounts of money protects them from being held accountable

    how about equal protection for all of us, it doesn't exist...

    • 1 vote
    Reply#8 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:47 AM EST
    Boudicea

    So lets say you were a Subchapter S Corp - just you and maybe a couple of employees. Lets say you had a house painting company. Joe Schmoe calls the government and says you poured lead paint down his drain. The government shuts you down. No trial, nothing. Just shuts you down and takes your assets. You OK with that?

    • 4 votes
    #8.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:49 AM EST
    digcreation

    why would that happen? just because hugh's company isn't a person doesn't mean he isn't

      #8.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:51 AM EST
      hugh b

      i would rather err on the side of the ecology than on the side of a soulless, guiltless, and criminal corporation

      i'm all for profits and success, but at what cost? there has been a point of diminishing returns on all of our so called progress

      explain, monsanto to me and their oppressive actions towards farmers

      I can't list them all but they take their size advantage to the extreme and it is so dangerous. They have got to be held accountable. Compensation and profits, should be held in escrow until all the facts of their process is revealed and that can take decades.

      They are not honorable Boudi, plain and simple, greed overwhelms persons, especially corporate persons.

        #8.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:18 AM EST
        Boudicea

        We're talking about complete government control over corporations. Hugh is NO LONGER a "person" if he becomes a corporation. Without "personhood" protections, Hugh's entire company is at the sole mercy of the government.

        Hugh you're off track. I am NOT talking about the grievances you have against corporations - that is absolutely positively NOT the topic and I am letting you know that for the second time. Please stay on topic or if you prefer, write and article ABOUT your problems with corporations and I will gladly visit. However, this is MY article and I get to choose the topic. Ok?

        • 5 votes
        #8.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:23 AM EST
        digcreation

        the corp. represents the group, perhaps several generations if they are successful.

        but the execs are (or should be according to me, anyway) responsible for their actions. the exec/owner does not lose personhood any more than a sole proprietor loses personhood. the business is a financial tool, my tax id number doesn't have rights. my 401k doesn't have rights. these are financial tools. (easy joke teed up) the corporate identity is a tool to allow the group to commit legal transactions.

        the concept of corporation as person with legal status outside of business law is a corruption of the system attributable to the campaign finance issues you do recognize.

        just as calling money speech legalizes bribery, calling corps. people, outside of business law, legalizes the plutocracy resulting from undue influence.

          #8.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:45 AM EST
          Boudicea

          digcreation - I understand what you are saying, but the PREMISE you are working under is that the current laws apply to corporate entities. I am suggesting what would be possible if they did NOT. Further, there IS a legal method for holding the individual owners/directors/stockholders of a corporation liable for wrongs. It's called piercing the corporate veil, and it is used when it is warranted.

          I am suggesting that there are far more positives than negatives with respect to the concept of Corporate Personhood. In fact, the only one I could really come up with is the argument against campaign finance reform - hence the premise of this article.

          • 5 votes
          #8.6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:52 AM EST
          digcreation

          I understand you believe the benefits outweigh the negatives and a little reform will solve the problem.

          I am saying your negatives for taking corporate personhood away are either not true or overblown and that there are far more negatives to keeping corporate personhood than just the campign finance corruption.

          Government involvement in corporate matters. Legalizing discrimination about where corporations may locate or operate.

          this happens now, its called zoning.

          Imagine if the government were permitted to close down a corporation on a mere suspicion that one of their products is unsafe, or on an anonymous tip that there was wrong-doing in management.

          why would that happen? Joe CEO would still exist to fight for the corporation and the stockholders/ proprietor would still have property rights.

          but when a fictional, organization that can only exist with the governments blessing, after you pay the fees, being granted the rights of a human to participate in our culture has a domino effect on our legal system. It devalues human rights, elevates financial classism, and undermines the concept of representative democracy wherein every citizen has an equal voice.

          • 1 vote
          #8.7 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:03 PM EST
          Reliant

          Imagine Goldman Sachs being placed under indefinite detention in Guantanamo Bay for financial terrorism. No? Can't happen? Then I guess Corporations are not people. But sure as hell Corporations are not Citizens. Although maybe this is the Scotch talking.

          • 1 vote
          #8.8 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:28 PM EST
          Boudicea

          Reliant, I am certain it is not the Scotch. Nobody ever said corporations are people. The decisions said that corporations are not exempt from the Constitutional protections afforded to people.

          • 1 vote
          #8.9 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:56 AM EST
          Reply
          Boudicea

          Lets get back on track here, people. While I do understand that some people dislike corporations and have various pet peeves with them, I really wanted to address corporate personhood. The fact that so many people are ignoring that basic issue tells me that we, as a people, really DON'T CARE that corporations are given the same rights as individuals. Am I reading that right?

          • 4 votes
          Reply#9 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:47 AM EST
          digcreation

          If a corporation cannot enter into a contract, how are they supposed to exist?

          because individuals enter into contracts, including those who run businesses. The organization doesn't do anything but symbolize the collection of workers and managers and owners. That symbol can be identified on the contract, rather than naming everyone, but that dosn;t give the corporation an identity as a person.

          I understand you can cite case law, I am arguing in favor of legally reversing that.

          Eliminating these protections to corporations could result in the collapse of our economy as we know it.

          hyperbole. stating that rights are for humans, and corporations are just for business transactions would not destroy our economy, though some adjustments would have to be made, for the better.

          Imagine a world where corporations were given no rights to defend themselves in court.

          always with the fear mongering on the right. the eople who own the corporation would still retain legal rights. But, just as exxon couldn't exersize free speech, therefor you couldn't sue exxon; the owners would still have free speech, and would be liable for their business actions.

          In Citizens United, the SCOTUS did NOT establish Corporate Personhood

          this is true. it was just the last straw. corporations get to exercise the rights of people, but they are not held accountable in the same way. and so these organizations are able to buy more influence than individual citizens who the country is supposed to be for.

          yes campaign finance is a significant part of the problem, but so is lobbying, and the incestuous job pool, and the fact that at some point our government decided its job was to protect business rather than to protect citizens.

            #10 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:48 AM EST
            Boudicea

            Dig - did you read the link provided with those quotes? Corporations DO enter into contracts - not individuals. Corporations own lots and lots of office buildings. An individual signs ON BEHALF of a corporation, but make no mistake, CORPORATIONS enter into contracts. Just check out any Union bargaining agreement in America.

            And come on here, that little "dig" about fear mongering on the right? Remember who I am digcreation? I'm Libertarian and I don't DO fear-mongering. If I wanted to I'd just print another article that said Citizens United created Corporate Personhood like 1000 other people did here on the vine.

            • 4 votes
            #10.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:52 AM EST
            digcreation

            I read it all. I always read before commenting.

            I do understand that corporations, as symbols for all the stakeholders, enter into contracts. I'm a consultant, I enter into contracts with businesses and non-profits all the time.

            but the corporation exists on behalf of the people, the people are not working on behalf of the corporation. the corporation is a fiction created to simplify transactions. It can enter into legal agreements as an entity, because you the entity outlasts the individuals. But that does not give it human rights.

            A corporation was defined in the Dartmouth College case of 1819, in which Chief Justice Marshall of the United States Supreme Court stated that " A corporation is an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of the law". A corporation is a legal entity, distinct and separate from the individuals who create and operate it. As legal entity the corporation can acquire, own, and dispose of property in its own name like buildings, land and equipment. It can also incur liabilities and enter into contracts like franchising and leasing.

            suggesting the worst case scenario, when it is not a realist outcome, in order to elicit support through emotional response, is fearmongering.

            and, I don;t know how to break this to you, but libertarians are to the right of republicans.

            • 3 votes
            #10.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:08 AM EST
            Boudicea

            LOL - not so much, dig. I am WAY to the left of republicans. And Libertarians may be the ONLY political ideology which is more concerned with the Rule of Law and the Constitution, than with the "@!$%# the Constitution, this is what I DEMAND" ideology of the Repubs and Dems.

            • 3 votes
            #10.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:16 AM EST
            digcreation

            right and left in theory are not the same as right and left in practice, I agree.

            • 1 vote
            #10.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:46 AM EST
            Steve Watts

            I think dig is more or less hitting the response I had to this article. You're citing precedent, and that's grand, but you're citing it as if it's the only way to offer the reasonable legal protections to corporations. The problem is that Citizens United was built atop flawed case law to begin with. If earlier precedent had established that corporations were granted certain rights as corporations -- not as persons -- then Citizens United wouldn't have been a problem to start with.

            It's the foundation that's the problem, and you're arguing that the foundation necessitates that we keep it in tact. Those arguing against corporate personhood aren't arguing that we suddenly reverse hundreds of years of case law, they're arguing that we replace it with law that recognizes faceless, money-making entities aren't people.

            • 3 votes
            #10.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:22 PM EST
            Boudicea

            Ok, Steve, here's my question. You said:

            they're arguing that we replace it with law that recognizes faceless, money-making entities aren't people.

            I ask - with resect to WHAT? Should we strip them completely of their right to equal protection? how about their rights to free speech? Due process?

            Or is the BIGGEST and most GLARING problem with respect to campaign spending?

            • 4 votes
            #10.6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:25 PM EST
            Steve Watts

            Should we strip them completely of their right to equal protection? how about their rights to free speech? Due process?

            Or is the BIGGEST and most GLARING problem with respect to campaign spending?

            No, no, no, and yes. But they can be granted each of those first three rights being legally defined as corporations. The fact that precedent gives them those rights as persons is what leads to the "biggest and most glaring" problem, as you put it. The problem is foundational; that's my point.

            So the solution is simple: reverse the case law establishing them as persons, and immediately replace it with law that puts those protections in place for the legal definition of corporations. Then, you remove the flawed foundation, it takes care of the problem with campaign spending, and we have a better legal structure moving forward. Revising past law would both solve our current problem and prevent future problems.

            This "all or nothing" slippery-slope argument you're making is a logically-flawed strawman.

            • 1 vote
            #10.7 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:31 PM EST
            Boudicea

            The problem is that nobody except the press ever SAID "personhood". The cases I cited basically say "corporations are not to be treated differently with respect to rights". So there is NO law saying they are "Persons". There are no laws to overturn. And there is absolutely no REASON to overturn them. You are the one who is suggesting that only SOME of their rights be stripped. Well you can't do that by law - it's already been ruled unconstitutional. THe ONLY viable alternative is a Constitutional Amendment addressing the problem - which is NOT personhood. It is campaign spending.

            • 4 votes
            #10.8 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:35 PM EST
            Steve Watts

            The cases I cited basically say "corporations are not to be treated differently with respect to rights".

            That seems like splitting hairs. They may not say the word "personhood," but when you say that corporations aren't to be treated different from persons, you are in effect granting them all the rights that come with being a person. That's the fundamental flaw I'm talking about. Corporations are not persons, so there is no reason to grant them all of the same rights. The cases you cite are the precise problem I'm talking about.

            Revising the precedent of case law to recognize that corporations are not persons would immediately fix all current and future problems. Rights would be granted on a case-by-case basis, rather than transposing any individual right to a corporation by default. Presto chango, campaign finance is fixed, and the next time we run into a similar person/corporation problem, it wouldn't be such a twisted legal mess.

            I'm essentially arguing that we change the law so that corporations will still have all the rights you're arguing for, no longer have the campaign finance problems you cite, and won't run into similar problems in the future. I'm honestly not quite sure why you're arguing against the notion, if not to just stick to your guns with this strawman you've constructed.

            • 2 votes
            #10.9 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:40 PM EST
            Boudicea

            Every Supreme Court decision is based on something extremely limited - splitting hairs, if you will. No, it would NOT fix the problems and how in the hell do you expect the SCOTUS to rule on everything on a case-by-case basis? That's not their job.

            I'm arguing that you don't "Give" corporations individual rights - you give them ALL the rights and take away that one little tiny specific LIMITED right that is causing us all so much grief! Write a friggin Amendment limiting their right to finance campaigns and leave the rest alone - SINCE IT HAS ALL WORKED QUITE NICELY SINCE 1790

            • 3 votes
            #10.10 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:09 PM EST
            digcreation

            Should we strip them completely of their right to equal protection? how about their rights to free speech? Due process?

            yes.

            there is no reason for Mars candy or exxon or toys r us to be in court because courts are for either punishing people who break the law or settling civil disputes between people (I understand our system is not functioning that way right now) corporations are not people.

            if "Henry's house of gadgets" rips you off, then you're dispute is with Henry, not the fictional business entity.

            if the government decides to tax corporate profits they tax the shareholders. if the share holders decide to pay as group, using the corporate name, that is fine but the corporation is not paying the people are.

            I hear a semantics critique coming. but this idea that the corp. is a thing of its own, and not the people who own/run it is part of the reason for the lack of accountability and corruption. Campaign finance issues are just a symptom.... BP spilled the oil, not Mr. Joe Smith is responsible for not doing his job; AIG was over leveraged, not Mr. Bean Counter committed fraud.. etc.

            free speech, how can a fictional identity have free speech? does Frodo have free speech? The NY times doesn't have free speech, its reporters do. Google doesn't have free speech, but its CEO does. and with that comes responsibility for slander, plagiarism, etc. You can't have free speech if you can not generate ideas. And moneymaker, inc EIN# 12-3456789 does not think. its just a symbol for a group of those who do.

            • 2 votes
            #10.11 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:18 PM EST
            Daniel A. Hallo

            Companies are dictatorships.

            Unions are Democracies, thats the big difference here the Right spend millions of dollars on think tanks to find rhetorical arguments to obfuscate so they can undermine it...

            You can't run a Company like a Democracy, why would any reasonable thinking person claim that we should run a Democracy, that from its founding, establishes the people as the sole sovereigns of soil and government like a company without destroying it?

            "Unless the mass retains sufficient control over those entrusted with the powers of their government, these will be perverted to their own oppression, and to the perpetuation of wealth and power in the individuals and their families selected for the trust. Whether our Constitution has hit on the exact degree of control necessary, is yet under experiment." --Thomas Jefferson to M. van der Kemp, 1812.

            • 1 vote
            #10.12 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:41 PM EST
            Boudicea

            No, Unions are most certainly not democracies and more than corporations are dictatorships. Corporations have stockholders - just like unions have members.

            dig - I do understand where you are coming from but I don't think your opinion is correct. Look back to the very very very first Supreme Court decision on corporate "personhood". It had to do with whether or not William & Mary college had the right to re-organize. It wasn't Mr. Chancellor of the School who was re-organizing, it was the college itself. Did an ENTITY have the authority to act independently to make changes or was it up to the government to allow it? It wasn't about any particular "wrong-doing" or criminal liability, or any such thing. It was about the ability to operate on a day-to-day basis and make decisions about how the organization was going to operate. We certainly cannot have ABC Manufacturer going to the Supreme Court every time it wants to sell a new product overseas - there are already laws on the books about what needs to be done in order for that to happen - but certainly NOT whether ABC could sell it's product. And why isn't equal protection important? You don't think that the anti-trust laws are about Equal Protection? So if ABC wants to take over an entire INDUSTRY that XYZ shouldn't have any rights to step up and say "HEY, that's a Monopoly! Foul!"

            • 5 votes
            #10.13 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:56 PM EST
            Steve Watts

            Write a friggin Amendment limiting their right to finance campaigns and leave the rest alone

            Except at that point you have set precedent that the government can arbitrarily limit rights of persons. That opens a whole other host of problems. If you ask me, that's much more of a minefield than simply separating the types of entities from the start.

            I think our sides are at an impasse, since we're just suggesting different solutions for the same thing. You're suggesting we fix this one very specific problem with campaign finance reform, I'm suggesting we remove the germ that mutated into that problem and replace it with something more structurally sound.

            For what it's worth, I think your solution is probably more realistic. The courts aren't known for broad moves, and are more likely to grant a short-term solution to a specific problem than to anticipate future ones and prepare for them.

            Either way, I think you're mischaracterizing those who talk about eliminating corporate personhood. You wrote an article talking about how the anti-personhood camp is short-sighted, but your argument doesn't accurately represent their position. I haven't heard a single person advocate that we strip corporations of all rights and leave them legally screwed. We just think it's absurd to grant them the rights of a human being by default. It inevitably leads to problems like this one, and it will again in the future, as long as we keep building on a cracked foundation.

            By the way, why the name change?

            • 2 votes
            #10.14 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:25 PM EST
            Boudicea

            Steve - first of all, a Constitutional amendment does NOT "set a precedent", a court decision does. Getting an Amendment passed is hard work, has to be agreed to by one hell of a lot of people and STOPS a host of other problems.

            We're not at an impasse in the least. The Court has already ruled that there is no way in hell that the Congress can "fix" corporate campaign spending by legislation. The only options are a) let things go or b) Amend the Constitution.

            The courts aren't known for broad moves simply because they are limited in their authority to dealing with minutia - SMALL issues which affect Constitutionality. And that, IMO, is a wonderful thing. Courts are not permitted to "make" law, so I want their power limited exclusively to the very very very specific issues which come before them.

            As far as corporate personhood and those who talk about eliminating it - the REASON I wrote this article is simply because I have visited numerous articles here on the vine and everyone screaming for Corporate Personhood to be eliminated CANNOT TELL ME WHY. They have absolutely NO reason - because frankly, I don't think they understand the concept or the implications. Basically, until Citizens United in 2010, nobody gave a tinker's damn about whether or not a corporation was given rights. Now, it's all about campaign finance reform and the MISINFORMED or UNINFORMED morons out there seem to think we can just "strip away" "personhood" and everything will be hunkey dorey. Nope. Doesn't work that way.

            And we haven't GIVEN then rights by default. Not at all. The rights were already there. Congress tried to take them away and SCOTUS said No.

            Why the name change? Because Boudicea fought against an invading Roman Army against all odds and almost beat the crap out of them. I'm re-fighting that battle here on the vine.

            • 3 votes
            #10.15 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:11 PM EST
            Steve Watts

            Why the name change? Because Boudicea fought against an invading Roman Army against all odds and almost beat the crap out of them. I'm re-fighting that battle here on the vine.

            Glad to know you're keeping political debates on the internet in perspective. ;-)

            • 2 votes
            #10.16 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:19 PM EST
            digcreation

            Boudicea,

            there seems to be a disconnect between on us on the concept of identity.

            that case gave the people who run William and Mary the authority to do.. whatever. Laws governing corporations and legislating corp. export/import law do and should exist. But, again, the corp name is functioning as a symbol for the group of people it represents.

            but Joe's Random Business doesn't do anything, Joe and his employees and shareholders do. The people are the one's with the rights and the responsibility.

            if you form a trust, the CEO's should be punished. But this corporate veil where the corp is somehow its own thing with its own identity offers a those with power a way to avoid responsibility for their actions. So a pension fund gets raided to pay for inventory at a failing business and the company gets sued, but the CEO walks away with a golden parachute (Bethlehem Steel).

            If Kellogg cereals decides to invest a political campaign, it means the people on the board decided to invest. As a group. With the money and influence created by all of the execs and employees and shareholders. Kellogg the business did not decide to do anything.

            the idea of a business being a person and have human rights is just a way for the rich and powerful to increase reward while decreasing risk. which is always what the game is about. you can't pretend that is not their motivation for everything involving their business, and you have ot judge their actions accordingly... that's just smart business.

              #10.17 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:04 AM EST
              Boudicea

              Dig you have hit absolutely positively on the REASON why "corporate personhood" exists. The SCOTUS has determined that corporations are groups of PEOPLE with rights and as such, those rights must exist whether those people are acting individually or acting collectively.

              • 2 votes
              #10.18 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:58 AM EST
              digcreation

              the rights exists for the people.

              if the org, as an identity, exercises rights, then those people are not responsible for their actions.

                #10.19 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:55 PM EST
                Reply
                Joanna Caroll

                Boudicea, Ambivalent wrote an article which you might find interesting. Note the Southern Pacific RR mention. [I have the book, tho not quite finished reading. We're almost neighbors, let me know if you'd like to borrow it.]

                • 1 vote
                Reply#11 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:50 AM EST
                Boudicea

                There's a good chance that 99% of my responses on that article could get me banned. It's apparent that the author never read my article on Understanding the Supreme Court.

                • 3 votes
                #11.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:54 AM EST
                Reply
                WLGarrison

                Adam Smith, the father of modern capitalism, in his Wealth of nations only called for a free market for small locally owned businesses. He had a great distrust for large business where the owners were not local. For large business, the joint-stock companies of his day, he called for a strong democratically elected government to counter the power of the economic elite. Given his distrust of large business, I doubt he would have advocated corporate personhood.

                http://www.huffingtonpost.com/catherine-crier/capitalists-of-america--u_b_992786.html

                • 1 vote
                Reply#12 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:59 PM EST
                tomwcraig

                One of the major problems with McCain-Feingold was the fact that Corporations were almost completely banned from directly contributing to campaigns; whereas other organizations that have a Corporate-like management structure were not banned from doing so. These organizations are mainly the State and National Unions. Think about how their are mainly structured: They have a President/CEO, a bunch of other Executive Officers, advisory boards similar to the Board of Directors of corporations, and a bunch of members that pay money for being represented by these Executives and Boards; just like stockholders of corporations.

                In truth, if you want to stop say Corporations from having the ability to donate directly to campaigns, all other SIMILARLY STRUCTURED organizations need to have that ability removed as well. As in truth, they are truly corporations without the "INC." or "CORP." after their name signifying that they are corporations. "LLC"s can be corporations but more often are partnerships or sole-proprietorships built to limit liability similar to corporations but without the need for many partners or stockholders.

                • 4 votes
                Reply#13 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:24 PM EST
                Boudicea

                The establishment of ANY limitations for particular groups will always violate equal protection. The biggest problem, as I see it, with McCain-Feingold is that there was an ABSOLUTE exception for Media. This brings up a major issue since media's JOB is to report on what is happening. So how do we carve out that exception for Media? WE CAN'T. The ONLY option is Constitutional Amendment.

                • 4 votes
                #13.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:29 PM EST
                Marshall James

                who owns the media???? 5 corporations do.

                they could care less if restrictions are put on them as they control the information provided to the public anyway.

                • 5 votes
                #13.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:29 PM EST
                tomwcraig

                I agree with you, Boudicea, and I'm sorry about not being clear about what I was talking about. Any Constitutional Amendment needs to be structured so that all similarly structured organizations fall under the same category, regardless of size. One of my major problems with Government regulations is that they tend to think only in terms of size not structure. Just look at their regulations requiring public hearings for farms to "improve" their manure storage systems. If they have 500 animals or more, they are considered a "Corporate" farm and have to hold public hearings. It has nothing to do with management structure.

                • 5 votes
                #13.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:41 PM EST
                digcreation

                The establishment of ANY limitations for particular groups will always violate equal protection.

                equal protection for people. citizens. humans.

                a corporate entity is none of those.

                  #13.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:20 PM EST
                  Daniel A. Hallo

                  The establishment of ANY limitations for particular groups will always violate equal protection.

                  "Governments, wherein the will of every one has a just influence... has its evils,... the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing. Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. [I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.] Even this evil is productive of good. It prevents the degeneracy of government, and nourishes a general attention to the public affairs." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787.

                  • 1 vote
                  #13.5 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:48 PM EST
                  Boudicea

                  digcreation - the SCOTUS has disagreed with you at least a dozen times. And you still haven't explained to me WHY it's such a bad thing. Give me examples of WHY. You can say "it's bad" until hell freezes over, but if you can't tell me why then it's completely irrelevant.

                  Daniel - what in the hell does that mean?

                  • 3 votes
                  #13.6 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:58 PM EST
                  Steve Watts

                  And you still haven't explained to me WHY it's such a bad thing. Give me examples of WHY.

                  Isn't that the entire discussion here? It's "bad" because problems like the campaign finance wrinkle are inevitable. The only suggestion you've come up with to solve it is an arbitrary restriction with no sound legal reasoning. Your opponents are suggesting that we revise the law to make it both fair and consistent.

                  You're contradicting yourself. On one hand, you say that the legal precedent of "corporations are not to be treated differently from people" has worked fine for hundreds of years. On the other, you say the solution to the campaign finance issue is a special amendment that singles out corporations and treats them differently from people. Which is it?

                  • 2 votes
                  #13.7 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:32 PM EST
                  Boudicea

                  Steve, you've made my point. Corporate Personhood doesn't affect ANYONE or ANYTHING except campaign finances. So why bitch about a SCOTUS Decision which was absolutely correct based on over 200 years of precedent and just fix the damned problem!

                  I am absolutely NOT contradicting myself! Take the situation with the vote for women. Did we introduce legislation that says women have absolutely no rights except for those that we ask the SCOTUS if they have? NO. We passed an amendment to fix the problem!

                  • 5 votes
                  #13.8 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:14 PM EST
                  Steve Watts

                  I am absolutely NOT contradicting myself!

                  Yes, that's why you're saying that the current solution works fine, except that we need an amendment for this one part that it doesn't work.

                  Did we introduce legislation that says women have absolutely no rights except for those that we ask the SCOTUS if they have? NO. We passed an amendment to fix the problem!

                  You're comparing granting rights to a previously oppressed class with removing select rights from a type of entity whose definition of rights is too broad. The two situations could not possibly be more different.

                  • 1 vote
                  #13.9 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:22 PM EST
                  tomwcraig

                  Steve,

                  She's not saying a contradictory thing. She's saying that if we as a GROUP of people think that the system is broken that the only way to fix the problem is a Constitutional Amendment and not whining about the Supreme Court knocking down McCain-Feingold which was a poorly crafted bill that was not even in its coverage.

                  • 5 votes
                  #13.10 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:12 PM EST
                  digcreation

                  see 10.17

                  the idea of a business being a person and have human rights is just a way for the rich and powerful to increase reward while decreasing risk. by increasing the "depth" of the corporate veil between accountability and influence. which is always what the game is about. you can't pretend that is not their motivation for everything involving their business, and you have to judge their actions accordingly... that's just smart business.

                    #13.11 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:08 AM EST
                    Reply
                    grump in NM

                    What a puzzle we have here. Should we be angry with corporations or should we be angry at Congressmen and women who hold out their hand and become beholding to the corporations and pass laws in favor of the corporations.

                    Term limits would be really helpful.

                    We have destroyed ourselves with our own system.

                    • 4 votes
                    Reply#14 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:49 PM EST
                    Marshall James

                    or maybe we should be mad with OURSELVES for listening to the nonsense...believing what the "media" tells us??

                    I think we are to blame...more than any other. you do not take away freedom because WE were stupid.

                    we correct the mistake...demand freedom...and make choices that is best for the country...not select groups.

                    both sides......are responsible for this....as each wants to sacrifice liberty for their own cause....

                    we have done this to ourselves....and should look no further than our mirrors.

                    • 3 votes
                    #14.1 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:10 PM EST
                    Boudicea

                    Hi grump! I think we have to be angry with Congress because the ability to change the problem is SOLELY in their hands and they chose not to do anything about it. Why should we be angry with corporations for doing what is absolutely legal?

                    • 6 votes
                    #14.2 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:10 PM EST
                    grump in NM

                    Spot on, Boudicea. Legal because Congress has been pruchased by the corps. I do not have an idea about how to turn it around. I have to plead total ignorance. My simple idea is term limits as it seems the longer a person is in Congress the deeper they are in debt to the corps.

                    • 2 votes
                    #14.3 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:26 PM EST
                    Boudicea

                    No grump, legal because that's the way the Constitution was written. The corporations haven't been given some special gift. It's just that the Congress has no intention of doing ANYTHING to stop it while they benefit from it. It's called a conflict of interest and it is disgusting. Term limits do nothing to determine what is and is not constitutional.

                    • 5 votes
                    #14.4 - Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:59 PM EST
                    Reply
                    John Franklin Mason

                    Thing is there is no Constitutional right to Incorporate. A Corporation is a business entity granted by the Government which limits the financial liability exposure of stakeholders to what they actually have invested in the Corporation. The intent and purpose for Corporations is to create domestic jobs, tax revenue streams or to serve special needs.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#15 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:05 AM EST
                    Master Link

                    Boudicea I appreciate the premise of your article, and you shed new light on this issue of Corporate personhood for me.

                    As to the issue of campaign spending I recommend for discussion the idea of Taxpayer funded campaigns. The cost to taxpayers for blanket support of all qualified candidates would be less than paying for a corrupt government. Who would be a qualified candidate? I'm not sure how that could be worked out, maybe a candidate would need to get a certain number of signatures to be eligible, I do know the taxpayer will not want to finance everybody that throws their hat in the ring. There are many smart people in this country that need to step up and lead by example, where are all the great ideas this country should be able to generate?

                    Thank you for the chance to respond to a well written article, Master Link.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#16 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:06 AM EST
                    maria lyn

                    There is only one thing that I find to be a bit illegal about the whole idea/of Corps: being persons. Is that I believe it allows the same people that vote for a candidate in that Corp: to give double their contributions twice over. Which is totally illegal/but then since when hasn't the Supreme Court been a bit biased or down right Illegal it's self in their rulings. Because it seems to always be stacked with more of the party in control? Maria_Lyn

                    • 1 vote
                    #16.1 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:39 AM EST
                    Boudicea

                    Master Link - first let me say that I appreciate your calm, rational reply. It's posts like your which truly do foster intelligent discussion.

                    There is certainly a lot to be said for taxpayer funded elections and there would absolutely be issues which need to be worked out. The current system we have which allows private contributions AND tax dollars certainly does not work for me.

                    I believe (and this is certainly just my opinion) that the ONLY people who should be permitted to fund politicial campaigns are United States Citizens - and I would go so far as to say only REGISTERED VOTERS, too. That's pretty extreme for most people but it certainly would stop the problem of corporate spending WITHOUT stripping rights from corporations. Of course, this would also require a Constitutional Amendment.

                    maria lyn - thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I believe you don't quite understand the purpose of the Supreme Court or the limitations placed on it by the Constitution. I recommend that you to go my page and read my article Understanding the Supreme Court. Their decision doesn't make something a law and there is nothing PARTISAN about their decisions - because once they make a decision, Congress HAS EVERY OPPORTUNITY AND EVERY RIGHT to address it either by legislation or by Constitutional Amendment. Blaming the SCOTUS is a red herring. Too many people in America today believe that a Court decision is the "end" of discussion on an issue. It is not. It is the beginning of further discussion - is the issue important enough to try and legislate in a different manner? Is it something we need to address via Constitutional Amendment? Or will the Congress shrug their shoulders, say "oh well" and move along to the next issue on the agenda.

                    • 4 votes
                    #16.2 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:06 AM EST
                    maria lyn

                    I understand what the Supreme Court is for/but it doesn't always mean it will conduct itself that way!

                    • 1 vote
                    #16.3 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:21 AM EST
                    Boudicea

                    No, apparently you do not understand what it is for, since your comment insinuates that the SCOTUS can MAKE laws. I am not trying to be insulting - MANY people do not understand the consequences of a Supreme Court decision.

                    • 3 votes
                    #16.4 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:30 AM EST
                    maria lyn

                    OK we will agree to disagree. I know what I am trying to say but maybe it is just too simple for you to understand. If the Supreme doesn't pass the law. Then why is everyone having a fit their decision on Citizen United?

                    • 1 vote
                    #16.5 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:14 AM EST
                    Boudicea

                    Everyone is having a fit about C.U. because they do not understand the basic principles of how our government works. Simple as that. Here's the bottom line - the Congress wrote a law (McCain-Feingold Act of 2002) which said that all corporations EXCEPT media corporations were restricted on campaign financing out of regular operating funds during the 90 days preceeding an election. The SCOTUS said "No, you can't do that. No exceptions. ALL corporations have to be treated exactly the same way". THAT was the bottom line on C.U.

                    NOW, what happens NEXT is the place people don't "get it". Congress has every right to GO BACK AND WRITE ANOTHER LAW on campaign finance reform which treats all corporations exactly the same. Their other option was to draft a Constitutional Amendment saying how they want campaign finance contributions to work and attempt to get it ratified by all the states. Their THIRD OPTION was to do nothing. They did nothing.

                    So WHY is everybody bitching about the decision? Because they don't comprehend that the Supreme Court is just like a referee. They didn't say "you can't play the game" they said "That move was a foul. The play doesn't count".

                    If the people of the United States would simply EDUCATE THEMSELVES on how our government works they might understand that it's CONGRESS'S FAULT that we have unchecked campaign spending by Corporations. Just because you desire a particular end (which may be quite positive and beneficial for all) doesn't mean you can IGNORE the Constitution.

                    And the "maybe it is just too simple for you to understand" comment was unnecessary, since it's apparent that I understand completely.

                    • 5 votes
                    #16.6 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:12 AM EST
                    digcreation

                    our anger is not with the SCOTUS per se, but with the fact that our leadership both considers this to be true and chooses to do nothing to correct it.

                    the citizens united decision is the focus of the anger because it put a spotlight on the problem.

                    • 1 vote
                    #16.7 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:58 PM EST
                    Boudicea

                    Again, you made my point, digcreation. We should NOT be angry with the SCOTUS, we should be angry with the self-serving idiots in Congress who will not address the problem because they WANT the campaign dollars for themselves - screw us

                    • 4 votes
                    #16.8 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:40 PM EST
                    digcreation

                    I never disagreed with that pont.

                    I do disagree with the idea the corporate personhood is okay.

                    we should have campaign finance reform and corporate law reform.

                      #16.9 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:15 PM EST
                      Boudicea

                      So we agree on the campaign finance reform, too. Good - because they only way it can be done is Constitutional Amendment.

                      Lets say that has been accomplished. Now - what's your remaining problem with "corporate personhood?"

                      • 3 votes
                      #16.10 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:51 AM EST
                      digcreation

                      read the previous.

                        #16.11 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:59 AM EST
                        Boudicea

                        Yeah, I know. This whole thing has been trying to pinpoint WHY corporate personhood (except for the campaign finance reform issue) is a bad thing. So far, all I've gotten is "I don't like it", or "They're not people". Not only from you but from everyone else here as well. That's the point. Nobody can give me a VALID, SOLID reason why corporate personhood hurts anybody or anything. It doesn't. Ergo "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

                        • 3 votes
                        #16.12 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:06 AM EST
                        Reply
                        digcreation

                        i believe i have stated many times, many ways.

                        1) when the corporation is considered a person, as opposed to a group identifier for contract law, it creates a buffer between the actions of the humans and accountability. It is inherently dangerous for people to have power and lack accountability.

                        2) if rights can be bequeathed by the government when you purchase a corporate identity, what does that portent for citizens' rights? (remember, checks and balances exist not because they were afraid of washington, but the guy who might be president some day)

                        • 1 vote
                        #17 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:22 AM EST
                        Boudicea

                        And I have pointed out "piercing the corporate veil" which DOES hold individuals in a corporation accountable so argument #1 is not completely valid.

                        Second - rights were not "bequeathed" by the government. Rights exist. The Constitution was written to set up a government which was NOT given permission to strip anyone of rights. So I suggest that rather for looking to WHERE in the Constitution corporations were "given" rights (even though it is evident within the 14th Amendment) I would look for where the GOVERNMENT was given the authority to strip away their rights.

                        • 2 votes
                        #17.1 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:34 AM EST
                        digcreation

                        the concept of having to pierce the veil, to overcome the obstacle of the corporate identity via legal investigation, proves my point quite clearly. The corporate identity serves to shield the stakeholders from responsibility. for example BP, a company, was blamed for the gulf oil spill, rather than the humans who signed the papers and gave the orders and did the work. and AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc are blamed for the credit fraud swap, rather than the humans who knowingly sold bad bundles and then over leveraged the hedge fund on it.

                        2) rights belong to humans, naturally. a corporation does not exist unless you pay the government to recognize the identity. If corporate identity comes with the rights of a person, then human rights are being granted to a fictional identity by the government upon payment.

                        • 1 vote
                        #17.2 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:51 AM EST
                        Boudicea

                        Regarding piercing the corporate veil - you are saying then, that the "corporation" should be considered guilty immediately when accused of a crime. AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc - you DO realize that when you work for an insurance or financial firm that you are ALWAYS personally responsible for the decisions you make, right - it's part of your licensure. The fact is, NO LAWS WERE BROKEN, or those individuals would be in jail. And as far as BP - tell me how they were not ultimately held responsible for the damage to property and the environment? I believe they A CORPORATION are paying. Would you rather 10 people be in jail and the entire Gulf of Mexico still be filled with Oil? What is better in this case - incarceration of people or monetary restitution?

                        rights are granted to humans and corporations are groups of humans. See above explanation

                        So you still haven't shown me a single solitary place where "personhood" is a problem. Laws protect against wrongdoing and those laws may be enforced against corporations as well as people.

                        next argument, please.

                        • 2 votes
                        #17.3 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:04 AM EST
                        digcreation

                        okay well, we keep repeating ourselves to each other, and I never liked merry go rounds.

                        have a nice day.

                        • 1 vote
                        #17.4 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:08 AM EST
                        Boudicea

                        Next time around, Dig. See ya.

                        • 1 vote
                        #17.5 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:19 AM EST
                        merleliz

                        For one of the first times on Newsvine, I've read an exchange where I felt both of you deserved a vote up. Bravo!

                        Boudicea, Dig...here is my take on it.

                        Corporations are groups of people...and you can't take the rights of those people away because they are members of a group.

                        If Tom, Dick and Harry are conducting business as a group, and they are sharing the responsibilities of doing so as a group, then they have to have the rights, as a group, to equal protection under the law, both from the government and other individuals.

                        • 1 vote
                        #17.6 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:16 PM EST
                        digcreation

                        well that's true. but the group identity does not deserve the rights of an individual.

                        the shareholders can execute contracts as group "doing business as" company x. but the property rights (for example) belong to the shareholders not company X. As company X is not real.

                          #17.7 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:48 PM EST
                          Boudicea

                          how can 500,000 shareholders sign a document for USX? Proxy? NOPE. No proxies without laws which allow corporations to enter into contracts.

                          • 1 vote
                          #17.8 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:34 AM EST
                          digcreation

                          I didn't think I was being so abstract. let me try again, as specific as possible.

                          the concept of the corporate name being used as a group identifier for contracts, etc. is reasonable.

                          But that is not the same as granting that identifier rights outside of business law.. e.g. free speech wherein the corporate identity can make donations, run ads, etc as a separate person from any individual. if the CEO wants to make a personal donation that fine, but the group identity can not have the rights of an individual.

                          and inside business law, if a corporation is found guilty of say fraud, the punishments should only fall on the humans who committed the crime. not the entire group via the identity while the human walks away with a golden parachute. the business should survive and the human who committed the crime should suffer. because the workers did nothing, while a few execs committed the crime. (in this example)

                          and while the group identity may be the label on the property ownership papers, because that identity represents humans, normal property law still applies.

                          this is not a contradiction. the identity represents the group of humans, as a label, for business contracts, there just has to be a legal document somewhere identifying all the people that label represents. but the identity does not exist outside of business contracts.

                            #17.9 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:51 PM EST
                            Boudicea

                            dig - as I see it, we keep on coming right back to your only REAL problem with the concept of "personhood" and that is campaign financing. Specifically, are there any OTHER issues you have?

                            The other issues you indicates are ALL currently addressed in either civil or criminal law.

                            • 1 vote
                            #17.10 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:58 PM EST
                            digcreation

                            boudicea

                            all due respect, I'm starting to believe you are impaired in some way. You keep either missing or ignoring what I am saying.

                            campaign finance is but one symptom The other issues are not addressed, or rather are addressed in a way that supports corporate personhood.

                            The existence of the corporate veil is another symptom of the problem, the fact that it is pierce-able notwithstanding.

                            the existence of belief that property rights belong to the corporate identity, is a symptom of the problem.

                            the fact that we subsidize, give tax breaks too, and even bail out corporations while letting people swing in the wind is a symptom of the problem.

                            the problem: the idea that corporations are exist as real people do and deserve protection and representation in our government.

                            They do not. The government is for people, and people only. Laws and rights, etc apply to us for our benefit and corporations should be treated like any other resource.

                            • 1 vote
                            #17.11 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:10 PM EST
                            Boudicea

                            Maybe we're having a mis-communication here. Absolutely everything you have pointed out as "problems" have ALREADY been addressed with legislation - from piercing the corporate veil to laws holding the officers liable, to taxation, etc. EVERYTHING. That's why I don't understand just exactly WHAT you think would be accomplished by abolishing "personhood".

                            Property rights? HOW would it be possible to own a 65 story $500 Million office building without a corporate entity? Give each stockholder a 1/100000th share? Have you ever owned a company? Corporations MUST be able to hold assets - that was decided over 220 years ago!

                            NOBODY EVER said that corporations should have representation in government - THAT is ridiculous! AND corporations do NOT vote.

                            Subsidies are not a "Personhood" issue in the least. Subsidies (a/k/a tax breaks) are a TAXATION issue - and there is far more wrong with our tax code than "subsidies". What about Agriculture subsidies? They exist for corporations AND for individuals.

                            Bailouts? Again, NOT a "personhood" issue. Where is it written that corporations, via personhood, have a RIGHT to bailouts? We're talking about RIGHTS here, not handouts.

                            Any problems you have with corporations seem to NOT stem from "personhood" but rather with Congress.

                            In short, the only - single, solitary - issue I can pinpoint here ARISING FROM THE PERSONHOOD meme is campaign financing. That's it. The ONLY one.

                            I think I've finally pinpointed our area of misunderstanding - not how corporations are treated by the crooks in Congress - but what RIGHTS they have like equal protection, due process and speech.

                            And Campaign finances are NOT a "symptom", them are a RESULT. SO FIX THE PROBLEM and leave the rest alone.

                            Damn, I truly HOPE that we might get on the same page, cos I do believe that in the end, we see eye to eye on the problems with corporations IN GENERAL.

                            • 1 vote
                            #17.12 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:56 PM EST
                            digcreation

                            all of these things you say are not about person hood arise from the perception of the corporation as an entity of its own.

                            why would you bailout or subsidize a corporation if you did not perceive it as an identity deserving government support and protection? but only people deserve that, and so corporate personhood has extended outside of business law.

                            if company X is caught dumping garbage in the water due to an accident resulting from cutting corners on safety protocols. (e.g. gulf oil) Company X is made to suffer financially. However, Joe VP, Tom Foreman, and Betty Inspector are actually the ones responsible, they just used the company coffers to hold their cut for awhile. The corporate identity creates protection from accountability. (I understand what criminal investigations are, but we both saw BP keep the government away for several days.)

                            at no time am I saying that we should not allow the business identity to be used for contracts, including purchases of property. I am saying that identity should be recognized, legally as nothing more than a symbol for a group.

                              #17.13 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:47 PM EST
                              Boudicea

                              Dig your questions beg the following answers:

                              I don't believe in BAILOUTS for corporations OR individuals. I don't believe in subsidies (i.e. tax credits, etc) for corporations OR individuals. I don't think the bailouts have any precedent as a corporate "symbol" or a corporate "person". They were simply an abomination.

                              Regarding Company X, etc and their officers - I'm all for X bearing the brunt of financial woes and Joe VP, et al going to jail. The laws are in place - corporate "personhood" does not come into play EXCEPT to the extent that they all get their day in court. And I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with that.

                              I think what it gets down to is this - the examples you gave are already covered by civil, criminal or contract law - not addressed by the "personhood" issue. I've spent literally MONTHS considering this issue, and I truly, honestly, deeply believe that the only negative thing "personhood" imposes is the right of a corporation to spend freely on political campaigns. We've addressed that with humans - because we treated them all the same. In the case of corporations, we have a big big problem - MEDIA. It's their JOB to report about campaigns, and to do so they MUST spend money. We can't carve out an exception for them so our only option is Constitutional Amendment.

                              • 1 vote
                              #17.14 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:22 PM EST
                              digcreation

                              the campaign reform solution is obvious, Sanders proposed an amendment doing exactly what you want. it didn't specif an exception but the limitations it does pose don't apply to media coverage. it gets no where because no one will bite the hand that feeds them. which is hwy I've been arguing for a Constitutional Convention.

                              but the philosophy behind these actions I've listed is not incidental. it reveals a common purpose and motivation. ne that is dangerous to representative democracy, not just in the arena of voting.

                                #17.15 - Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:44 AM EST
                                Boudicea

                                We're never gonna get a good Amendment introduced by Congress - because you are right - they WANT the money. I'm with you for a Constitutional Convention.

                                • 2 votes
                                #17.16 - Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:37 AM EST
                                Boudicea

                                We're never gonna get a good Amendment introduced by Congress - because you are right - they WANT the money. I'm with you for a Constitutional Convention.

                                • 1 vote
                                #17.17 - Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:37 AM EST
                                digcreation

                                a practical plan for reform

                                  #17.18 - Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:45 AM EST
                                  Reply
                                  Boudicea

                                  It's DONE! Congratulations! With the holidays and everything I forgot all about this!

                                    Reply#18 - Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:48 AM EST
                                    digcreation

                                    if that's in response to my last, thank you.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #18.1 - Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:25 AM EST
                                    Reply
                                    MJL-3

                                    Excellent explaination:

                                    Why is this a bad thing?

                                    The reason is simple. Corporations are not people, they are legal entities who are legally required to care about just one thing: maximizing shareholder profits. They don't have the same desires and vulnerabilities as people and will therefore sometimes fight against the best interests of real people.

                                    • They can't get cancer and they can't have a heart attack.
                                    • They can't be addicted to alcohol or nicotine.
                                    • The don't feel emotional pain when the lose property or go into bankruptcy.
                                    • They don't need clean air and clean water to survive.
                                    • They don't care what our neighborhoods look like or what percent of our children graduate high school.
                                    • They don't appreciate a day off spent with family at a public park, because there is nothing in it for them.
                                    • And finally they don't care about ideals like fairness, justice and equality.

                                    This is why they sometimes fight against us and this is why we have to restrict their rights.

                                    http://endcorporatepersonhood.us/

                                    It is NOT good

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #19 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:06 PM EST
                                    Boudicea

                                    Again, NONE of that affects us as a society. NONE of it has anything to do with 'rights" such as equal protection, due process and freedom of speech.

                                    I liken it to those who want us to stop eating foods high in saturated fat. Are you thinking to accomplish it by taking away our right to EAT altogether?

                                    Your comment has absolutely NOTHING to do with the question - which is WHAT (except campaign finance) is negatively affected by corporations having "rights"? You haven't answered the question - just given me a list of obvious ways in which corporations are not people.

                                    Oh, and by the way, I can give you an extensive list of HUMANS who don't care about fairness, justice, equality, family, clean air, schools, bankruptcy, addiction or other things.

                                    You see, you can't have it both ways. You will call corporations "EVIL" - thus projecting upon them a "human" vice, then say they don't care about justice because they aren't people. Which is it?

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #19.1 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:30 PM EST
                                    digcreation

                                    a corporation represents an anonymous force, like the ocean. Neither good or bad, you can't hold back the ocean or exxon-mobile. when an entity of such power has equal legal status to a human, the result is an imbalance in justice due their inherent influence. Not just in politics but in matters of law, as well as the public forum.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #19.2 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:11 PM EST
                                    MJL-3

                                    Again, NONE of that affects us as a society. NONE of it has anything to do with 'rights" such as equal protection, due process and freedom of speech.

                                    Corporation are run by people who hide behind the corporation to deminish the employees, what part of this do you not understand? If you allow Corporations the same rights a humans, we are all @!$%#ed.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #19.3 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:58 PM EST
                                    Boudicea

                                    So corporations shouldn't be allowed to own property? Shouldn't have the right to due process? Shouldn't be permitted to advertise? Shouldn't be allowed to enter into contracts?

                                    Did you ever hear of the concept of "piercing the corporate veil?" it means that when the owners/officers of a corporation do something illegal, they cannot take advantage of the limited liability offered by the corporate "shield". That's why Enron executives are in prison.

                                    And I'm trying to be civil, so if you could manage, I'd suggest you do the same.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.4 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:27 PM EST
                                    MJL-3

                                    And I'm trying to be civil, so if you could manage, I'd suggest you do the same.

                                    How was I not being civil?

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #19.5 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:03 PM EST
                                    digcreation

                                    due process applies to be prosecuted in the courts, innocent till proven guilty, speedy trial, free lawyer, etc.

                                    why would a corporation need these things? you can't take away exxon's freedom and put it in jail. you can't charge BP with murder or theft. GM can not have a motive.

                                    but the people who sit on their boards can, because they are people. as a group they DBA corporation X but responsibility and rights still reside with the people. If you move that over to the corporate identity, there is no responsibility under the law for actions of the decision makers. and that is not politics.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.6 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:27 PM EST
                                    Boudicea

                                    again we've been through this, dig. Don't assume that ALL corporations are "exxon". Some are just mom & pop and their sons. Why would they need it? So that Joe Smith doesn't make false allegations against the corporation which would cause the government to close it down or seize the company's assets

                                    You think a company cannot have a "motive?" Is not MONEY one of the most prominent motives in history for illegal activity? Isn 't profit the entire reason for a corporation's existence? And even with corporate identity in place, the decision makers are responsible.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.7 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:00 AM EST
                                    AZPADDY

                                    Boudecia

                                    "The decision makers are responsible"??

                                    Corporations should be done away with, as the entity exists solely as a shield behind which business owners can hide. It is indeed a "separate entity", and in any court proceedings involving a corporation as the defendant, the challenge is to "Pierce the corporate veil" behind which businessowners and their employees can appear and dissapear as the need arises. Even then, the people behind the veil enjoy little to no responsibility for their actions.

                                    If only the individual taxpayers enjoyed that privilege! Lowered taxes, minimal liability, along with the ability to dispense the "corporate funds" that the "separate entity" controls, makes corporations the "enemy within" that is waging a war of attrition against the American middle class. Pretending a corporate entity is part and parcel of the American middle class is naive at best, and complicit at worst.

                                    In short, defending the corporations of today, makes me ask: "Why do you hate America?"

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.8 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:17 PM EST
                                    Time Lord

                                    AZPADDY...

                                    "...defending the corporations of today, makes me ask: "Why do you hate America?"

                                    In Miss B's defense...you are making a HUGE erroneous assumption with your questioned conclusion. There is some truth in what you say, but don't be so quick to jump to judgment...

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #19.9 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:26 PM EST
                                    Boudicea

                                    Az - do away with corporations and 99% of Americans are unemployed. Why do YOU hate America?

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.10 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:00 PM EST
                                    AZPADDY

                                    Boudecia

                                    do away with corporations and 99% of Americans are unemployed.

                                    Umm....not really. The demand for the goods and services the business is engaged in would still exist, and therefore still employ the 99%, but the souless corporate entity would be gone.

                                    America does not demand corporations, we demand the goods and services we as a society supply.

                                    I love America a helluva lot more than any corporation.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.11 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:08 PM EST
                                    digcreation

                                    I used Exxon because it was the first example that pooped into my head. but the same would be true Joe's house of subs, or whatever.

                                    claims against a business, under my model, would be against the people who own it, and they would have the rights of humans in court. even if we allowed the efficiency of a group identity just as we do for contract law, it would still be the humans held responsible. or acquitted.

                                    the motive belongs to the people. it does not belong to the corporate identity. that is the point. A tax id number has no motive. the guy who fills out the form does. the tax id number has nothing to lose, the person does. you can;t be responsible or accountable if you are not a person with motives or fears.

                                    This is one discussion I will keep coming back to because it is important that America fix this.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.12 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:20 PM EST
                                    Boudicea

                                    Dig - we are actually pretty close in our philosophies and I believe we're actually just splitting hairs. Corporate finance does need to be fixed. Maybe some laws regarding limited liability for certain actions taken by corporate officers need to be not only strengthened but enforced.

                                    However, (Azpaddy) I cannot see doing away with corporations - that's ridiculous! Which individual has the money to build a ship? A 747? Who can afford R & D for new drugs? Which person can design and build a car?

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.13 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:30 PM EST
                                    digcreation

                                    I agree we are close. but I can;t seem to get you to recognize that these all issues all stem from the legal concept of the corporate identity as a person instead of a fiction created for contract convenience.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.14 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:38 PM EST
                                    AZPADDY

                                    Boudecia, #19.13

                                    Who can afford R & D for new drugs? Which person can design and build a car?

                                    The Henry Fords and the same American ingenuity and technology that inspired and built the things you cite in the first place. These things would have been done and would continue to be done without the presence of a corporate entity.

                                    Although, it's a pipe dream on my part. Corporations have a stranglehold on our nation, and will not let go without a vicious fight, and when our elected representatives do their bidding, we are killing ourselves. Haven't you wondered why the Koch bros. bankroll such pro-corporate legislation? Do you really believe organized labor is the evil force it's portrayed to be? If you do, the once mighty American middle class must have been evil to you also.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.15 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:40 PM EST
                                    Boudicea

                                    dig - nope. You're not gonna get me to agree - but that's ok. I still respect your opinion.

                                    Henry Ford would NEVER have been able to accomplish what he did without the corporate structure. He GOT rich from the business, but he certainly didn't start with enough personal wealth to make Ford Motor Co what it is today without selling stock and taking out loans.

                                    Azpaddy - I personally don't like the fact that our elected officials can be bought, but do you really think that's the fault of the Koch brothers - or our elected officials with price tags?

                                    HOWEVER, if you really want to look at who influences our government the most, you need to look to organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission - and about a zillion OTHER "non-profit" organizations financed by the likes of David Rockefeller.

                                    It seems pretty obvious to me that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad in this world and for every "bad" corporation, there are a dozen "good" ones.

                                    Oh, and yes, by the way, I DO believe that organized labor is the evil force it's portrayed to be. THEIR influence on government is FAR worse than that of the Koch brothers, simply because THEIR influence has been legitimized by the NLRB. It is the perfect example of something that started out with good intentions, doing good work, and turned toxic.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #19.16 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:59 PM EST
                                    MJL-3

                                    if you really want to look at who influences our government the most, you need to look to organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission - and about a zillion OTHER "non-profit" organizations financed by the likes of David Rockefeller.

                                    You also need to look at Norquist and A.L.E.C they have a HUGE influence on the republican in government.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #19.17 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:01 PM EST
                                    AZPADDY

                                    Boudecia

                                    Oh, and yes, by the way, I DO believe that organized labor is the evil force it's portrayed to be.

                                    All organized labor is, and ever has been, is the joining together of American citizens - your fellow American citizens - to protect themselves from predatory business practices. Instead of buying into the big lie that organized labor is a bad thing, you should embrace the achievements of organized labor. Instead of working to weaken American labor - again, your fellow American citizens - you should applaud their efforts. They fail....America fails. They gain...America gains.

                                      #19.18 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:23 PM EST
                                      Time Lord

                                      Paddy...slipping in here. I agree, there was a time and a reason why "labor" organized and as you mentioned, it was to protect and represent the workers best interests. It was a noble and righteous endeavor. It gave workers a voice and representation. Unfortunately, over the past fifty years...labor union leadership, like any other religious or business "organization", became more focused on the money, power and the perpetuation of the "organization". This has caused union leadership to loose their way and to loose sight of the reason for their existence and who they actually were supposed to represent. Unions have become more about preserving the unions, protecting the leadership positions, maintaining their political power and increasing the revenue generated from their membership...and less about representing safety and best interests of the workers.

                                      Ultimately, unions (the organizations) have lost credibility and trust with their membership. Their political influence and member support has been seriously compromised and undermined by greed and power. The very forces that are responsible for worker abuse. This is sad in the light that the "need" and the "reason" for an organized labor force has never been greater.

                                      In their current role, unions and union leadership are little more then another parasite inna suit, existing and profiting off of the labor of the workers and offering as little as possible in return. It's a sad day...

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #19.19 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:33 AM EST
                                      Boudicea

                                      Timey - couldn't have said it better. My husband is union and you projected EXACTLY how he feels.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #19.20 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:54 AM EST
                                      AZPADDY

                                      Boudecia / Time Lord

                                      The idea that unions have somehow transformed into a negative force in America is the result of the campaign of anti-labor we've heard across America for decades. It's a long time practice of right-wing politics that "big lie" propoganda produces results. Hammer home the message of "Union bosses" - a sinister sounding term - and how corrupt they are. Find whatever instances of wrongdoing by union leadership, and run with it. 30 plus years later, and we see average Americans suspecting all organized labor to be run by Jimmy Hoffas and other assorted crooks.

                                      This same "Big Lie" technique has been at work in the state of Wisconsin and other states, put in action by Republican governors and legislatures on behalf of corporate interests. What they are doing, is waging war on the American middle class, and at some point, the backlash will sweep these corporate interests out of office.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #19.21 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:18 AM EST
                                      Boudicea

                                      Actually, Azpaddy, as I said above, I am basing my distrust of union strictly on my husband's experiences with them.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #19.22 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:16 AM EST
                                      Time Lord

                                      Paddy...ah respectfully disagree. I would like to support you on this, but ah can't. What has happened to the unions is less about external "smear campaigns" and more about the union leaderships lust for greed and power. They've done it to themselves...the decay has come from within. I believe the same forces are working within our legislative branch of government and sadly to the same end. The lust for greed and power are powerful motivating forces...always have been, and they predictably...consistently garner the same results.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #19.23 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:17 AM EST
                                      Reply
                                      Time Lord

                                      **tagged**for later consumption. Gotta do some "homework" Miss B.

                                      Well written with great examples of precedence...thank you for posting this.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      Reply#20 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:20 PM EST
                                      Boudicea

                                      look forward to your return, Time Lord

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #20.1 - Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:01 PM EST
                                      Time Lord

                                      Sorry Miss B...ah gotta little side tracked with the labor union stuff. Ah'll git back on track...

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #20.2 - Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:39 AM EST
                                      Reply
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