Smokers - Fight Back!!!!

I've heard growing tobacco (the currently legal kind, not the funny stuff that makes people even happier), is really difficult. I haven't tried, but I've pondered the idea of trying to grow my own tobacco and then follow kjmgirl's path and roll my own. It's a lot of work, but a little hard work never hurt anyone, and it would save tons of money.

Yeah cause you want to get the best deal you can when you're trying to kill yourself.

Those taxes are going for programs to promote anti-smoking campaigns. We don't need more addictsAt least your not supporting the major tobacco campanies any longer by rolling your own. I'll grant you that.

But here's an idea, why don't you do yourself a favor and just quit? That's the cheapest option for a whole host of reasons AND you get to taste food again, not wake up hacking, or not die a needless and horrible death

I lost my father to smoking. It took a long time, and it wasn't pretty.

Those taxes are going for programs to promote anti-smoking campaigns

No. You're thinking of the big class action lawsuits of a decade ago. The taxes are mostly city/state taxes that go to the general fund - building roads, schools, the kind of things that everyone is supposed to pay for.

brian, acttually the federal do go to chip programs, state taxes vary state by state.

It i very difficult, but it can be done. My wife did it 25 years ago. She followed the American Lung Assoc. program.

I'll be the toughest, yet the most rewarding thing you'll ever do.

Good luck.

Jimster -

Couple of things.

1) Lets say you love Life Savers. The Wild Berry kind. You have a 'habit' of popping one in your mouth about every 1/2 hour and savoring it. Life Savers are perfectly legal, right? Yet everywhere you go, you're met with little signs saying "Thank you for not eating Life Savers". You're on an 8 hour flight without your Life Savers, and when you finally land, you have to go outside to have a Life Savers. And then....you have to go to a little area designated for Life Savers eating with all of the other Life Savers pariahs. Someone says to you: "Just quit. You're killing yourself with all that sugar and those preservatives! Afterall, obesity issues cause more of a drain on our healthcare system than smoking issues."

2) If the government is taxing the hell out of cigarettes in order to fund smoking related illnesses and anti-smoking campaigns...if they know it's so bad for people, then why do they make it legal for 18 year olds to buy a pack of cigarettes yet that same person can't buy a beer or pull the handle on a slot machine until they're 21?

, then why do they make it legal for 18 year olds to buy a pack of cigarettes yet that same person can't buy a beer or pull the handle on a slot machine until they're 21?

More unconstitutionality. If a person is a legal adult at 18 (and they are), they should be able to smoke, drink, gamble, or do anything else that is legal in this country, period. Our rights have been whittled away to the point where we are going to lose them all one day.

More unconstitutionality. If a person is a legal adult at 18 (and they are), they should be able to smoke, drink, gamble, or do anything else that is legal in this country, period.

I agree. An 18 year old can volunteer to go to Afghanistan and risk their life for the country, but they can't crack open a beer.

Helmet laws. Seatbelt laws. Different age laws for vices like gambling, drinking and smoking. In their overzealousness to protect people from themselves, the government has contradicted itself consistently, going with the 'feel-good' legislation of the day and as a result, whittled away the rights of Americans to chose right or wrong and accept the consequences of their own actions.

Pat-

First thanks for the analogy, it really does help on these discussion to be able look at things differently.

No analogy is perfect, but let's try to make it more er...analogous to smoking.

Let's suppose that eating Life Savers, besides providing pleasure and any health down-sides, also effects those in the vicinity of the consumer of them. Let's say a diabetic who sits nearby gets a sugar jolt along with a disruption of their blood sugar levels that hastens the on-set of diabetic complications. Or perhaps the sugar in the Life Savers causes tooth decay in those nearby.

This to me is closer to what smoking in public is like. It makes smoking (anything) different than any other unhealthful activity.

I realize that some situations are more intense than others in terms of contact with 2nd hand smoke, i.e elevators, or office space as opposed to an outdoor cafe or a baseball stadium, but in general, smoking effects those around the smoker in unhealthful ways.

The other unique thing about smoking is that it cannot be considered any part of a necessity like eating can. Even though one can eat unhealthful foods, the action of doing so is at least part of life sustaining action (albeit gone wrong perhaps).

So smoking sits in the position where some drugs are; they provide pleasure to the user, they impact the users health in some way, and it can cause social friction or strain on health services.

But smoking cigarettes is almost unique in it's ability to inflict direct health dangers to those merely in the proximity of it's user.Those who decide to not take the risk of smoking can have that decision thwarted by those who do decide to take the risks. Smokers should not have the right to place others at risk for their pursuit of pleasure. Period.

Because of these impacts, smokers must chip in to the kitty to mitigate the social and health impacts caused by their use of tobacco because it is purely voluntary activity that causes direct health risks to others.

"Those taxes are going for programs to promote anti-smoking campaigns."

Not in RI they're not. The taxes go to roadwork (can't say what the alcohol tax goes to). It was a big thing in RI a few years back because everyone thought that the taxes were going for hospitals, etc.

brian, acttually the federal do go to chip programs, state taxes vary state by state.

SCHIP is not anti-smoking programs. It is another example of a general purpose program (children's insurance for the poor) that should be distributed equally across tax payers. There is no logical reason smokers should be the only ones paying for an expansion of poor children's insurance.

Cigarette taxes should not go to hospitals. They should be used for things that benefit all of us.

As for quitting, if you can't quit I have no respect for you. I consider you weak and a drain on the rest of society.

Cigarette taxes should not go to hospitals. They should be used for things that benefit all of us.

Huh? Hospitals don't benefit all of us?

As for quitting, if you can't quit I have no respect for you. I consider you weak

I think you are forgetting that cigarettes are more addictive than crack. They aren't weak because they have a hard time quitting. Their biochemistry is driving them to have more nicotine. There are few things in life as difficult as overcoming an addiction.

As for quitting, if you can't quit I have no respect for you.

It's OK... I have no respect for you either...

There are few things in life as difficult as overcoming an addiction.

While I totally agree with your comment, I will have to disagree for another reason. As a smoker, it seems the biggest addiction today to overcome are those who feel self righteous over not just smokers but, any individual who do not adhere to their concept of "you're not living your life according to my standards". JMT

it seems the biggest addiction today to overcome are those who feel self righteous over not just smokers but, any individual who do not adhere to their concept of "you're not living your life according to my standards". JMT

Outstanding observance!

it seems the biggest addiction today to overcome are those who feel self righteous over not just smokers but, any individual who do not adhere to their concept of "you're not living your life according to my standards". JMT

Outstanding observance!

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it seems the biggest addiction today to overcome are those who feel self righteous over not just smokers but, any individual who do not adhere to their concept of "you're not living your life according to my standards". JMT

Outstanding observance!

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here, here!!!

did you ever try to quit smoking? I have and I have NOT been successful It's more addictive than heroin. IF you think that my bad habit should go to support other people, then that is your problem.

Roll your own for 2 months and you might be able to quit cold turkey. When I rolled my own the first week or so I doubled my smoking because of all the missing chemicals. After about 2 months I just got tired of rolling my own and quit. I still miss my Marlboro Reds and I love smoking but Michigan and Feds can blow me.

Rhazes - I hear ya, that was funny for being true:)

Pat N and bonos_rama--

More unconstitutionality. If a person is a legal adult at 18 (and they are), they should be able to smoke, drink, gamble, or do anything else that is legal in this country, period.

I agree. An 18 year old can volunteer to go to Afghanistan and risk their life for the country, but they can't crack open a beer.

Since bonos was along the same lines, why not include just one post.

Anyway, you two really want to talk about the difference between mind altering substances and joining the military after having much training? really? Sorry those 18 is an adult excuses are really bogus.

Never minding the fact that peoples' choices affect others so if someone wants to @!$%# up their own lives in the safety of their own homes, go for it, no one will stop them, but the problem is interaction with other people in the country. You two forget about that one.

Anyway, you two really want to talk about the difference between mind altering substances and joining the military after having much training?

Referring to my portion of the post only:

I have a daughter in her 8th week of basic training. She graduates in one week. She could concievably find herself in Afghanistan in two weeks. I'm shocked (and saddened) that you feel 9 weeks training is adequate for sending 18 year olds into a war zone. My feeling is that NO AMOUNT of training could prepare a person for that kind of experience.

Now...regarding the "mind altering substance" part of your post: An 18 year old can go to the store and buy Ny-Quil. Or Tylenol PM. Or No-Doz. Or Unisom. All mind altering substances. Do you advocate banning those products being sold to legal adults too?

Tylenol PM

@!$%# I got stories with that! LOL

khmgirl

Wow you do live in one greedy state. Just curious how did the credit card company have the right to give out the history of your purchases ?

khmgirl

It's called using cash ,unless they write you name done no trace.

Also someone mentioned growing your own. It' not that hard and it grows fast. Hi grade seeds on internet ,just need a pot and some dirt and you got a plant. One plant makes a lot of cigs.

In Gloucester they nailed the American Legion for selling ciggarettes from the reservation. JJ

Also someone mentioned growing your own. It' not that hard and it grows fast. Hi grade seeds on internet ,just need a pot and some dirt and you got a plant. One plant makes a lot of cigs.

Until the gov't decides to add that to the list of things they empower cops to kick your door in for. Like marijuana growing, which hurts no one.

They sent me a bill for $3,200 after my credit card company gave the state my name and history of purchases.

Holy @!$%#. Maybe its a good thing I buy locally.

kmj: You have every right to load tar into your lungs. I did it for years and ... ahhhh ... that feeling just can't be matched! Add a glass of wine to it, and I even liked my kids!

When I smoked, back when it was still politically correct, I asked people if they minded when I smoked near them. I never smoked in my apartment because I didn't have good ventilation. I didn't ALWAYS want to smell smoke. I also smoked back when asking to bum a tubie wasn't akin to requesting a kidney. They were cheap. If more people remember that smoke bothers some people terribly, I doubt this whole issue would have erupted.

Nah, I keep forgetting that whole wantie-takie thing the government has going for it.

Since I AM now smoke free (and I compare the quitting task to experiencing 9 months of raging PMS), I DO notice I a) walk farther without gasping b) smell prettier c) like food (goodbye, waist line!) and d) have fewer bronchial issues. I also know my wallet has change at the end of the work week.

When you light up, I'll stand by you if you're outside. That light waft of fresh air mixed with my favorite toxins is hard to resist. If you're inside, I'll thank you to put it out.

Since I quit smoking and now love food, I have planted a garden to get the best bang for my buck. Though slightly thick in the middle, I am willing to do what it takes to enjoy my newfound bad habit without purging my retirement fund. I believe all smokers should have that same right.

Why is it legal for a woman to have a choice with her own body when it comes to abortion but not when it comes to smoking?

Maybe there should be a "sin tax" on abortion. Oh, wait PA has taken federal money to fund abortion, but is taxing smokers to "help" them quit.

I've never heard of damage due to secondhand abortions.

A person is welcome to smoke, in his/her own home with the windows shut. So long as that home isn't connected to another's home, where the fumes can waft through ventilation systems and the walls.

Why is it legal for a woman to have a choice with her own body when it comes to abortion but not when it comes to smoking?

You have the choice to smoke. You simply don't have the choice to impose your smoking on other people.

You have the choice to smoke. You simply don't have the choice to impose your smoking on other people.

The Government tax has no bearing on where people smoke, or around whom people smoke.

By using these taxes the Government is saying "abortion good. smoking bad."

I've never heard of damage due to secondhand abortions.

Secondhand abortions? Okkkkaaay. Whatever, jonesy. I think I know what you were trying to say with your...um...attempted 'wit', though.

Going with your logic, then the dad, the grandparents, other siblings, etc., should have to give permission for the abortion. Afterall, the abortion affects those people and potentially, negatively...right?

A person is welcome to smoke, in his/her own home with the windows shut.

Great. Then a person is welcome to wear perfume or cologne in their home with the windows shut. Some people are allergic. Others might even suffer an asthma attack from someones 'second hand perfume'.

Only YOU could be so arrogant as to assume that you own the air!

Yes JonesGirl, you arrogant cow. How dare you demand clean air? How dare you demand the right to not inhale someone's smoke?????

kjm- It should be possible to buy air soon, when they put the cap on trade. JJ

Longhorn - smart a$$ trolling calls for smart a$$ response. Please take ALL cars off the road in California - they pollute MY air. Please close down ALL factories - they pollute MY air. Please withdraw all perfumes, after-shaves, etc from the market - they pollute MY air....

While your smokes pollute your lungs. Makes a whole lotta sense, there.

Yes JonesGirl, you arrogant cow. How dare you demand clean air? How dare you demand the right to not inhale someone's smoke?????

And would you be happy with a government proposal that you be allowed to drive your car all you want - inside your house with the windows closed? Car exhaust demonstrably hurts many more people than secondhand smoke.

While your smokes pollute your lungs. Makes a whole lotta sense, there.

If what I chose to do with my lungs is any of your concern, then what some other woman choses to do with her uterus must be of my concern, right?

Why is it legal for a woman to have a choice with her own body when it comes to abortion but not when it comes to smoking?

And why should it NOT be legal for her to have a choice with her own body in BOTH cases, Rusty? Or are you taking a hypocritical stance here in wanting gov't our of YOUR lungs but up in HER crotch?

If what I chose to do with my lungs is any of your concern, then what some other woman choses to do with her uterus must be of my concern, right?

Perfectly stated Pat!!!! :) I would vote for this to be comment of the day!! :) (If they had one. :)

Bonos - I was simply using the argument I hear all the time from the pro-choice movement that it is the woman's body, therefore the woman's choice. They say that the government shouldn't interfere with that choice.

Using that logic, if one chooses to smoke (regardless of the health effects), shouldn't the government stay out of that as well? They are trying to make that choice for the smoker via large sin taxes. I would argue that this amounts to government interference.

And why should it NOT be legal for her to have a choice with her own body in BOTH cases, Rusty?

I never said that it should or shouldn't be legal for her to have a choice. I disagree with the government funding abortion on one hand and taxing cigarettes on the other. I don't ask for federal money to buy cigarettes (I'm not even a smoker, but I wouldn't ask for the money if I was)

If what I chose to do with my lungs is any of your concern, then what some other woman choses to do with her uterus must be of my concern, right?

It seems you missed the point.

It's totally your concern. Go ahead and pollute your lungs all you want. My comment was in response to a prior comment where she sarcastically suggested not putting other pollutants in the air. What kind of sense does that make? Complaining about environmental pollution while you purposely pollute your own lungs? It's nonsensical and doesn't help her point.

Perfectly stated Pat!!!! :) I would vote for this to be comment of the day!! :)

Anyone who would vote this up as the comment of the day isn't thinking very well. Perhaps its all the plaque built up in the brain as a result of smoking.

Anyone who would vote this up as the comment of the day isn't thinking very well. Perhaps its all the plaque built up in the brain as a result of smoking.

*exhaling smoke* Or perhaps it just that I'm not a person who seems to have a stick up my ass while spewing self righteous bull@!$%#. :) Maybe you should take up smoking...it's very relaxing. :) I'm sure all that tension you are feeling is pretty bad for your health. :) Have a great day!! :) I know I will. :)

It seems you are the one who missed the point.

kjmgirl.... Happily accepted!! Thank you. :)

Maybe the government should require that everyone go back to horse & buggies

Nah, then you've got the whole methane gas problem

methane can be turned into "clean energy" can't it?

I've found it energizes a room full of people to clean out pretty quickly.

JaneinthisWorld - you did miss the point.

I didn't miss any point, kjm, they're BOTH BAD! But to complain about air pollution at the same time that you are purposely and actively polluting your own body is a weak and illogical argument.

*exhaling smoke* Or perhaps it just that I'm not a person who seems to have a stick up my ass while spewing self righteous bull@!$%#. :) Maybe you should take up smoking...it's very relaxing. :) I'm sure all that tension you are feeling is pretty bad for your health. :) Have a great day!! :) I know I will. :)

It seems you are the one who missed the point.

And this is what I'm talking about when I talk about projection. Do you fault an ex-smoker for having the strength to quit? I'm not spewing anything self-righteous, but its a weak defense to stand up for something you know is harmful to yourself and others and then attack others when they point out the flaws in your arguments.

Just be careful not to smoke in the stable!

And this is what I'm talking about when I talk about projection. Do you fault an ex-smoker for having the strength to quit? I'm not spewing anything self-righteous, but its a weak defense to stand up for something you know is harmful to yourself and others and then attack others when they point out the flaws in your arguments.

No, I fault a rude person who attacked me for no reason. I fight back. :) You don't like taking it? Don't dish it out.

My comment was in response to a prior comment where she sarcastically suggested not putting other pollutants in the air.

I know what your comment was in response to. And I used what they call an 'analogy' to your snippy comment. It blows my mind that the self-rightous can condemn smokers with snark and condescension, yet when a similar comparison is thrown back at them, they get testy.

Were you perhaps blind to the post that kjmgirl was responding to and the snarkiness that was contained in it? Or is your self-rightousness a one way street?

Anyway, the whole POINT of this seed was usury tax rates and how I am doing my level best to avoid them

Well, at the risk of being raked over the proverbial coals, I'll say it again: if you quit you could avoid the smoker's tax entirely!

I know what your comment was in response to. And I used what they call an 'analogy' to your snippy comment.

I don't know why you characterize my comment as snippy or self righteous, it was not intended as such. I am simply stating the obvious. Your analogy wasn't very well thought out. Although, as an ex-smoker, I know that when I used to need a cigarette my irritability responses were triggered more easily. Go have a smoke, Pat, you'll feel better.

Look , I really could care less if people want to smoke. Go right ahead and smoke. Just don't complain about all the direct consequences as a result of your choice to smoke and act as if you're being targeted or scapegoated, because none of it would happen if you didn't smoke.

What the founding fathers wanted isn't really relevant. They aren't here now. We are.

My 37 year old sister in law was recently diagnosed with COPD. She's been smoking since she was 15. If she doesn't quit, she will be on an oxygen tank within 5 years. She will incur huge medical bills as a result. The rest of us will be paying for that. Now is that fair?

Again, if you make the choice, you have to deal with the consequences. Or you can try to change the laws. Its not that difficult. Cause and effect.

What the founding fathers wanted isn't really relevant. They aren't here now. We are.

I weep for my country.

What the founding fathers wanted isn't really relevant.

oh....my....god.

The only relevant thing the Founding Fathers wanted was to create a document that could grow and change with the necessities of the people it served. Period.

If you really want to get into what the founding fathers "intended" lets start by saying they never "intended" for any woman to have rights independent of her husband, and that includes smoking.

Oh my God that.

Yea, well it was those women that made them who they were, or at least took credit for, at that time, but we all know different. And, thank God for change. That doesn't mean they can still think they own the world.....they don't! I don't give credit to anyone that isn't worthy of it....that's growth. Hek

Jane - you really need to start smoking again.

You said "they never "intended" for any woman to have rights independent of her husband, and that includes smoking."

Yup - you really need to get back to smoking or taking some better drugs than the ones you're on.

The only relevant thing the Founding Fathers wanted was to create a document that could grow and change with the necessities of the people it served. Period.

Funny...I don't remember seeing an addendum at the bottom of the constitution that says: "Please note. These terms and conditions are subject to change without notice. Limited time offer only."

If you really want to get into what the founding fathers "intended" lets start by saying they never "intended" for any woman to have rights independent of her husband, and that includes smoking.

Did you flunk history, per chance? We're getting off topic. Out of respect to the author, I won't deviate far except to say please study the roles Martha Washington, Betsey Hamilton, and Dolly Madison among many, many others. George Washington himself stated: "You ladies are in the best Patriots America can boast."

Get back to us when you can think and study for yourself rather than regurgitating left wing propaganda.

Jane - you really need to start smoking again.

You said "they never "intended" for any woman to have rights independent of her husband, and that includes smoking."

No thanks I'll pass.

I stand by the second statement though. They never imagined women would someday vote in this country or be treated as anything more than the property of her husband.

Maybe it simply fell under the 10th Amendment - like your right to smoke falls under the 4th and 9th (See, back on track now)

That was a kick ass segue! =)

You are foul

Reported for violating #1 of the COH.

Hey Mike whats the A stand for { being an A$ }

If that's not a COH violation, I don't know what is.

And calling other users names is a COH violation even if it is being descriptive. If I say "You are stupid, ignorant, uninformed, pathetic, idiotic, illiterate, crazy, ridiculous, evil, and worthless," I've pretty effectively broken the COH, regardless of how "descriptive" I'm being. Wouldn't you agree?

Knock yourself out, Mike. I warned TJG at LEAST 4 times

Doesn't matter. Two COH violations don't make a right. You were right to delete her comment, but wrong to violate the COH yourself while doing so.

If that's not a COH violation, I don't know what is.

Asking a question is now a violation of CoH? Are you really that thin skinned?

Dang... go to bed and miss all the excitement....

Asking a question is now a violation of CoH? Are you really that thin skinned?

If I was to hypothetically ask someone "What type of parents did you have, in order to produce such a completely idiotic piece of human trash?," it would definitely be a COH violation. Grow up and quit it with the personal attacks.

If I was to hypothetically ask someone "What type of parents did you have, in order to produce such a completely idiotic piece of human trash?," it would definitely be a COH violation.

You read THAT into "what does the 'A' stand for?" Goodness.

Grow up and quit it with the personal attacks.

I'd be happy to get back on track, but you seem to have gotten awfully quiet after your "logical fallicy" that smoking is a leading cause of cancer was soundly trounced. Shame on you for not knowing that 70% of all cancer deaths happen in developing nations where there is very little smoking occuring and the disease is attributed to other toxins. A real man would have been able to at least concede the point. You just slithered away. What's up with that?

You read THAT into "what does the 'A' stand for?" Goodness.

No, I illustrated how stupid the concept that "a question can't violate the COH' is.

I'd be happy to get back on track, but you seem to have gotten awfully quiet after your "logical fallicy" that smoking is a leading cause of cancer was soundly trounced.

Cute. I demonstrated that smoking causes almost 1/4 of deaths of cancer; I'd say that makes it a leading cause of cancer. And for Christ's sake, 'fallicy' is not a word.

Shame on you for not knowing that 70% of all cancer deaths happen in developing nations where there is very little smoking occuring and the disease is attributed to other toxins.

Shame on you for not knowing that about 24% of deaths from cancer are as a result of smoking.

A real man would have been able to at least concede the point.

Wow, really?

You just slithered away. What's up with that?

Still here, hon.

Ok. I mean, in the end, this discussion is academic; smokers have pretty much lost all the big battles. This new generation is less likely to see smoking as desirable than any before, smoking has been successfully stigmatized and (accurately) portrayed as dirty and unhealthy, and these trends are waxing, not waning. So we can argue about whether smoking really causes cancer, or whatever, but in the end I could lose every debate here and still win the war.

I think with that, I'll end my participation on this increasingly nasty thread.

No...it was about taxes on cigarettes. You have to be prepared for some digression, such as why we would put these taxes on cigs to begin with. Otherwise, you should be deleting any comment not related to taxes, and there are a whole lot of comments not related to the topic of taxes on cigarettes.

But they are not taxing the middle class and poor.
My ass.

The government does not want you to quit smoking

Very true. As they have discovered a goldmine with this tax. Which does not go to fund what it was supposed to be funding when it was implemented. Which IMO is so wrong on too many levels. When the fed and states started this tax the populace was told it would go to the health care costs of smokers. None goes towards that goal. It all goes into the general fund to be used where ever the fed and states decide they want to spend the money. (roads, bridges, etc.)

While that is a problem, the double taxation is wrong. Those who smoke don't just pay the taxes put forth by both the federal government and their state government, but also pay a sales tax on the price of the cigarettes that include those other taxes in the price being taxed by the sale.

In essence having to pay a tax on the taxes they are already paying. Example: (just to make it crystal clear) Say a pack costs $2, the federal tax is $3 and the state tax is $2. The price of that pack is now $7. Add in the sales tax at the POS. (point of sale) Say the state sales tax is 5%. The buyer is not paying the 5% sales tax on the $2 price of the pack, but IS paying the 5% sales tax on the total price of $7. The price should be $7.10, what they would pay in reality is $7.35.

That's wrong. Its double taxation. I don't know if that is illegal or not, but it is definitely wrong.

Now that smokers have been properly vilified and demonized, society is now setting its sights on those who are over weight and the products that are known to be a problem to cause obesity. Welcome to the smoker's club of "evil people" and the brave new world of taxed silly.

Most of those that don't drink alcohol (another that is sin taxed and aims are to go higher with that), those that don't smoke cigarettes or use tobacco products, those that do not imbibe in junk foods and beverages don't honestly care that those people are taxed silly.

Perhaps those people would begin to care when hit with outrageous taxes for something they do. All I know is what goes around, comes around an it is only a matter of time. (a heavy weight Longevity Tax?)

so,

it logically follows that all smokers who are libertarian or otherwise anti-big government, should quit smoking if they want to "starve the beast" then,

right?

That would be a pretty good idea ML. When Michigan and the Federal Government raised taxes on the bagged bulk tobacco, I switched to small menthol cigars at $2.00 per pack. Much worse for my lungs than cigarettes ever were but they drove me away from paying their taxes; the taxes they added on to force me to quit and get healthy. Who can figure the logic of government types? Now, when I ask a lawmaker questions before deciding for whom to vote, the first question asked, often publicly, is whether they voted for this abortion of a law. They usually try to justify their vote by talking about public health etc. My reply is always the same: "I'm just like the NRA; I don't care in the least about your excuses. The fact that you voted for it is enough for me, no matter how many other good things you may have done." If all of us vote that one issue, the lawmakers will find out very quickly that they have just pissed off 30% of their votes.

Can you tell me which one works best, Midwestlady? I am considering one of the electronic cigs myself.

Legalize Freedom indeed no wonder the media blocked him out when he ran for President. Ron Paul knows exactly what the people need and that is freedom let it ring!!

Do y'all mean Rand Paul?

Please, I mean no disrespect to either of you-- you are my friends, and I love you both. At the same time, if you like him, please, I'll be more than happy to ship him to your state, where you can vote for him. :-)

Take care, both of you, and know that I love you both bunches! I mean absolutely no disrespect! Take Rand Paul, please!

No I mean Ron Paul not Rand. Ron Paul is the guy trying to take out the Federal Reserve or at least hold them accountabvle for what is being done with our money.

Thank you Lisa, for your patience with my ignorance and your kindness.

However, my offer stands, for anyone, you want Rand Paul, you can have him, in your very own state!

Thank you thank you thank you.

(((((((((((((Lisa and Elaine))))))))))))))

))))))Ron Paul((((((

Dowser,

Rand Paul is Ron Paul's son. Don't believe the junk you hear on CNN about him. He's really no worse than any other politician; which, when you think about it, isn't much of a recommendation.

I am just here for the hugs((((Dowser))).

Try to be patient with Rand is is not a professional politician. That makes it much easier to make him look like a bufoon. I really do know he does stand for freedom though.

Please-- I do not like political discussions, and don't partake. You are welcome to him, just please don't saddle my state with him. We have enough nuts running around.

I do much more than watch CNN, Dear There-- I actually watch the local and national news and read the local newspapers. Neither candidate for the Republican Primary was endorsed by the Louisville Courier Journal, nor the Lexington Herald Leader, and Rand Paul's own hometown newspaper does not endorse him for election in November.

Not only that, but my family has a camper at Cave City, just 20 miles from Bowling Green, Mr. Paul's home. We live down there on many weekends from the first of April to the end of November, and holidays in between.

His own party censured him in the KY State Senate. His ophthalmologist's license is a sham. The Hell is Real billboard is in a county north of Bowling Green, LaRue County. The billboard may lose KY $42 million in Federal funds, and the bill supposed to create an exception to KY law was supported by Mr. Paul.

Does he have an idea about the problems facing African Americans in our own state? Warren County is 8.8% African Americans, Barren County is 7.7%, Hart County is 5.2%, and Edmonson County, home to the Neo-Nazis is 1.5%. (Kentucky County Census Data, Map of KY counties) If he doesn't have a clue about their problems, nor how to adequately run a more professional campaign, do you really want him in a national arena? However, that would likely suit his Neo-Nazi/KKK neighbors just fine.

No, I'm not saying he is associated with them, nor am I saying he is endorsed by them, but there is a nest of those vipers down there in Edmonson County, and they would have no problem with him. Here is an article about the Christian Reconstructionist Movement, where Rand Paul discussed his feelings about race, creationism, etc. This movement would have all government, be it local, state, federal, etc. subject to and secondary to the Bible.

I'm sorry, I can't buy into it. I try to live my life in a Christian manner-- without hatred for anyone or anything. But, this conversation has alarmed to so much, I'm writing a check to Jack Conway as of this evening. He must need my money if this nut is making such a favorable impression on the national stage.

Believe me. Please. I live here. No one, Republican, Democrat, Independent, not even Tea Party people, needs this guy in a national office.

"I really do know he does stand for freedom though."

No, he doesn't. He's anti-choice for women.

Actually he is for states rights which means a state could choose not to have legal abortions if they wanted or they could have legal marijuana if they want to.

I am so stocking up tomorrow. Thanks for the "how" to on this kjmgirl. I find it ridiculous to treat smokers like we are some kind of criminal...for God's sake they aren't "illegal". Until they make them illegal, they need to leave us alone nad give us back our rights. All this no smoking bull@!$%# is hurting a lot of businesses by the way. Another way to get the small man business's closed. They know exactly what they are doing...and no, I don't believe they "want" us to quit...but when they finally get everyone backed into a corner, then they will start fining them for money to get it a different way. I heard this lady in the store a couple of weeks ago tell her child who was wanting a bike, "if I buy it for you", you can't ride it on the street"....WTF. (Oh, and once my husband bought me this beautiful gown from Victoria's Secret, all silk, very expensive and says to me, "now your not allowed to eat in it, or do anything to ruin it, it's just for show", I took it back and bought some flannels/cottons, I swear. Hek. Thanks for the article!!!

I know it's not good for your health, I smoke. When they can come up with a way to help us quit....like everyone else gets for their addiction, instead of treating us like second class citizens, well then, I'm in. Or, until it's illegal, they need to leave us the hell alone. So far, nothing I have done works, or the side affects make me really sick, reactions and so forth. Anyway, it's my body, it's my money, money I work for, I pay my taxes, and it's my choice. Screw em. Hey, I go to work so people on Welfare can depend on me...I certainly can't depend on them! (meaning Government) Argggggg

I am all for you reducing the cost of your addiction. Although, if you quit not only would the government not get your money, it would be better for your health too.

And it doesn't matter if you get help for your addiction. Its hard to break an addiction no matter what it is. Bottom line is you just gotta want it bad enough. When you do, you'll quit.

I smoked passively since before I was born. I began actively smoking at 16 and I smoked a pack a day for the next 12 and a half years. I quit when I got pregnant. My baby's health was more important than my addiction. I stayed quit so my kids would have a lesser risk of smoking themselves.

Don't kid yourself. Smoking is a curse.

If everyone were to quit smoking today, the government would just find something else to tax. It's already happening with tanning and sodas. Who knows what would be next.

Anyway, it's my body, it's my money, money I work for, I pay my taxes, and it's my choice.

Ever heard of secondhand smoke? Your nasty addiction affects more than you. And yes, it is vile. I think of smokers as not very bright, who would try it, given all we know anymore, let alone spend hundreds a month on it?

I used to smoke, and I agree that smokers aren't very bright and their second hand smoke IS gross. I stopped smoking because after sitting next to an obese person on an airline and being put upon by his fat, sweaty slop hanging all over me and my seat and squeezing me in, I realize how annoying and inconvenient other people's vices can be to the rest of us. I put down the cigarette pack, now I'm hoping that obese people will put down their forks because it's no fun being exposed to second hand, sweaty fat.

Now that I have stopped smoking, I want to work on making boats for pleasure illegal. Cabin cruisers, motor boats, and speed boats put fumes in the air and pollute our waterways with oil. I am trying to be healthy now and pleasure boating is un-necessary. Our waterways should only be used for commerce. It will cut down on pollution.

Bernard - So you suddenly became smarter after you quit smoking? Was it the lack of haze/smoke or was it something else that made you smarter? Will President Obama get smarter after he quits smoking? I sure hope so.

'Course kjm, you know Einstein was stupid 'cause he smoked cigars and pipes and I know all of my family with IQ's over 148 and who smoke aren't very bright either which is why all of us have Master's or better degrees. Dammm, I hate it 'cause smoking did that to us.

Why do some ex smokers, (drinkers too) become such militant killjoys of hate filled spite? Not much is worse than a "reformed" person on a mission.

hee hee hee hee

"If everyone were to quit smoking today, the government would just find something else to tax. It's already happening with tanning and sodas. Who knows what would be next."

Well, considering some politician wanted to tax us by how many miles we drove and the air that we breathe (I'm not joking. Look it up).

The government is tax happy. This is what will be next; I can see it happening:

salt
caffeine
sugar substitutes
oil (any type; olive, vegetable, fish, etc.)

daMamma- I know the answer to that one.... pick me!...pick me!.....puts arm down..

It is a coping mechanism, when they first quit they are bummed out and feel like they are giving something up. It's sort of a I gave it all up and put myself out, so why can't you?

I have made the sacrifice, had the will power, been the better person, blah...blah..blah...with extra self-aggrandizing and of course all kinds of diminishing and marginalizing statements for anybody who is still addicted or hasn't stopped the behavior.

All that to make them feel better about a decision that they would otherwise be struggling with. I think if a person that is quitting can say, "this is not a big deal anybody can do it," and be positive about the experience, then when dealing with those who haven't decided to quit yet, they will have only positive things to say. Like YOU CAN DO IT!!! .......and that's all. JJ

Why do some ex smokers, (drinkers too) become such militant killjoys of hate filled spite?

Projecting just a little bit there. I can tell you, I have way more joy in my life without smoking than I ever did with it.

"Hate filled spite" - again, projecting your own feelings on someone else. Denial is heavy when you're in a smoke filled haze.

I can't wait to save all the money when I don't buy cigs. I have a LONG way to go though, quitting is so hard.

Jonesgirl -Your nasty addiction affects more than you. And yes, it is vile. I think of smokers as not very bright, who would try it, given all we know anymore, let alone spend hundreds a month on it?

Anyone that spews "nastiness" in whatever form outta their mouth is unhealthy to everyone!

Because I can, that's why!!!

I'm sorry some of you have problems with second hand smoke. Most states have passed laws protecting non smokers if your state doesn't have them then do a little leg work.

I quit smoking 3 months ago and I'm not getting any second hand smoke. No one smokes in my apartment, no one smokes in my car, at work I don't go outside with the smokers and follow them 900 yards away where they are allowed to smoke. In my state unless its a smoke shop smoking is most likely banned even before that law there was restaurants, bars and clubs that did not allow smoking. Your obviously not a hostage so it sounds like your problem is YOU.

Is it me... or do the militant NON smokers seem to walk right up to us "militant" smokers so that they can whine and complain about our second hand smoke??

Is it me... or do the militant NON smokers seem to walk right up to us "militant" smokers so that they can whine and complain about our second hand smoke??

So true!!

Two recent examples:

1) I was stuck at the Milwaukee airport after their recent floods. There is a DESIGNATED smoking area outside of baggage claim. I was sitting there, having a smoke, frustrated as hell because I couldn't get home and minding my own business. This couple walks out and decide to perch their butts right next to me. In the DESIGNATED smoking area. After a couple of minutes, the lady turns to the guy and says "Lets move. Someone stinks around here."

2) We have a lot of casinos around here. I was at one, sat down next to a lady at a slot machine, lit a cigarette and she proceeded to do this overly dramatic hand-waving in front of her face. I just turned to her and said "You know, they have a really nice non-smoking area down stairs. You might be more comfortable there." She looked at me with a death glare and said: "They don't have this machine downstairs! Maybe YOU shouldn't smoke!" I said: Look lady, if you're going to play in the smoking are, you need to suck it up and deal with the smoke." She got up and left.

Like my husband (who quit smoking, after finishing his BS in nursing, 20 years ago) points out it became OK to harass and abuse smokers thanks to the American Lung Association and the many states won their lawsuits against the tobacco companies. We became second class citizens. He goes on to point out that the research on the cancer studies about the correlation between smoking and cancer is flawed, but who are you going to trust to DO more research? AND that the research on second hand smoke is flawed... again same question.

He may be a reformed smoker... but when I have a cigarette... he stands by me, while I do it... I think, that sometimes, he's hoping for the second hand smoke....

Is it just me, or is it usually women who have no qualms about harassing smokers? Seems like non-smoking men who don't want to be around it will simply move, whereas women will get in your face about it.

And they get down right NASTY about it... Bless their little hearts... (I LOVE living in the South... so much gentility!)

My personal favorite is standing in the "smoking areas" at Disney (yes... Disney now has designated smoking areas... one bench, 50 gazillion smokers, 2 butt cans) and some militant non smoker mother with her cute, adorable, yet squalling child insists on standing right there so that she can complain about the smoke... LOUDLY... VERY LOUDLY... with language that would make even the most hardened military person blush (and being former military, having grown up in the military, and having MARRIED into the military TWICE, trust me... I know some language!)

My personal favorite is standing in the "smoking areas" at Disney (yes... Disney now has designated smoking areas... one bench, 50 gazillion smokers, 2 butt cans) and some militant non smoker mother with her cute, adorable, yet squalling child insists on standing right there so that she can complain about the smoke... LOUDLY... VERY LOUDLY... with language that would make even the most hardened military person blush

I think you just hit on something! Lets tax R rated language used by parents in front of their PG rated little 'angels'! Every time one of them uses abusive language against smokers in front of their kids, the smoker gets to hand them a tax bill. I think $2,000 per swear word is fair.

(and being former military, having grown up in the military, and having MARRIED into the military TWICE, trust me... I know some language!)

Thank you for your service! What branch? My daughter is in her 7th week of boot camp at Fort Leonard Wood. I've been doing a series here on the Vine of her letters. It's amazing how she's gone from "I made the wrong decision and I want to come home"...to "HOOAH! We rock! Bring on the bad guys!" in 7 short weeks.

She's at "Lost in the Woods"?? oh... sorry... was that my out loud voice?? I spent 4 GLORIOUS weeks at Lost in the Woods learning to type at the HIGH rate of speed of 20 words per minute! My first MOS was Combat Medic (that's the secret cover for CNAs and EMTs in the Army during peace time...) which meant 12 weeks at Ft Sam Houston, in San Antonio. Mom was Air Force, Dad was Navy... My sister and I went Army, both of us married into the Army too... then divorced the Army... then I married into it again, while she married into the Marines, poor thing...

If your daughter is in the 7th week... she's almost done... what's her MOS going to be?? I'm SO excited!! I LOVE baby soldiers!!!!!!!!! When I'm on post (which right now, isn't often... I ran away from home to go to culinary school... yes... I left him... LMAO) I'm very involved in the Morale support unit... I did it as an enlisted man's wife and I do it now as an officer's wife... and YOU, mama... if you need any help... you get in touch with me... If I can answer any questions or help you get some answers... I will... :)

She's at "Lost in the Woods"?? oh... sorry... was that my out loud voice?? I spent 4 GLORIOUS weeks at Lost in the Woods learning to type at the HIGH rate of speed of 20 words per minute!

Small world! She goes on and on about the heat, the bugs, the weather...In her last letter, she saw a dust bunny moving. Thought she was going crazy. Untill she noticed there was a centipede stuck under it.

If your daughter is in the 7th week... she's almost done... what's her MOS going to be?? I'm SO excited!! I LOVE baby soldiers!!!!!!!!!

LOL! Her MOS is 35N. Intel. Signals Analyst. They're sending her to Goodfellow AFB in San Angelo, TX for AIT. That seemed wierd to me. An AFB for an Army MOS? At any rate, since it's an AFB and the AF is essentially pampered, she's going to think she died and went to heaven. It will be like a resort to her after FLW.

... and YOU, mama... if you need any help... you get in touch with me... If I can answer any questions or help you get some answers... I will... :)

Believe me...I just may be taking you up on that offer!

If you want, check out the series of her letter. You might get a kick out of them. They start here, and I posted a link to the next part in the series at the end of each thread.

http://panicklaus.newsvine.com/_news/2010/06/13/4504354-letters-from-boot-camp-part-1

If you don't want to read through all of the posts and just read her letters, just go to the end of each thread and click the link I posted to the next one.

I'd welcome your contributions and insight!

My husband is at Ft Sam in San Antonio... San Angelo is just down the road... and you are right... the AF are pampered... the food ALONE is worth the price of admission! LMAO (Just TRY and eat in an Army hospital cafeteria... I DARE you... I DOUBLE dog dare you!)

She thinks it's hot in Misery?? Wait till she gets to Texas! bwahahahahahahaha

Sure Shot - how'd you do it? And, Congratulations!!! I am wanting to quit..but just can't seem to do it by myself. And, nothing else has been successful in trying with other types of medications.

But I stand behind all of you who still smoke.

Go ahead and smoke. But I'd rather not stand behind you when you do it.

How do you do it? You just do. It isn't easy.

I travel to the indians in a nieghboring state...saves me about 50% per carton...bummer for my state but there own fault!

But many many many years ago I had a bad habit with a much much more dangerous drug and was able to quit. Why can't I quit smoking?????

Sweetie stop beating yourself. I can hear your pain speaking. Our bodies actually have nicotine receptors there must be a reason for that. Plus I am almost certain there is some undisclosed substance in tobacco products that keep people addicted. The drug you were addicted to probably was much purer than our tobacco products are.

I have been in recovery for many years because of an alcohol problem. I have studied addiction looking for answers. I am a part of a huge online community for addiction and I blog with them almost daily. What I do know is addiction has something to do with pain. This pain can be of the body, mind or spirit. I used to think making drugs illegal was a good thing but now I am not so sure of that because I see how making drugs illegal just adds to the pain. I have experienced the pain of the legal system thru one of my brothers who has been locked up so many times for drug law violations. Putting him in prison has not helped him one bit and has hurt our family in so many ways. To me making drugs illegal is cruel and even probably unconstitutional. I hope to God that tobacco is not made illegal because it will cause more harm than good. I think taxing and unjust laws are the problem not the addiction.

I also want to point out that people have been programed to believe tobacco kills I am not saying it is good for you but the program flipping thru our brain instilling guilt I think is every bit if not more harmful. Many people have lived to be over 90 years and even 100 that smoke and drink and probably also take drugs too but just do admit it publiclly.

If I can give you any advice about it all I say be gentle with yourself. Also, good for you for finding a money saving solution.

Everyone can quit. You just have to want it badly enough and be willing to take the temporary pain.

I don't think I've ever met a woman who could go cold turkey. I've known many men that have done it pretty easily, though. It seems to me men have the willpower in this area while women do not. I wonder if anyone has ever done a study on this?

kjmgirl,I feel for you. I know you did not post to get a lecture on how bad and how wrong smoking is. More power to you if you found a cheaper way to support your addiction. I have never smoked so I can't know how strong that addiction is. To each their own.

Wow, LittleSureShot! Good for you and congratulations! That is exciting and I wish you continued success.
: )

"I don't think I've ever met a woman who could go cold turkey."

My mom can. She stopped for a few months. . .then she got my college tuition bill and. . .LOL.

I quit cold turkey. But I was pregnant. Smoking simply wasn't an option anymore. It wasn't easy. But there was something more important at stake.

It didn't make me sick. If that were the case I could have picked it up again after my child was born. I didn't want to pass on the curse of smoking that I had inherited from my parents, its that easy.

Now I get it. You're one of the "born agains"

I quit when I was pregnant and through my kids childhood. Then it crept up on me. One cig here, one there and slowly it built back up into the habit I have today. It is SO HARD to quit. Something has to happen in your head before your body follows, at least in my case. I can't get the head thing going. But I can feel the toll they take on me, and one day hope I will be done with the cigs forever. Maybe if they legalize pot here.....

Now I get it. You're one of the "born agains"

See now what's with your snippiness? You fault someone who was able to quit? Why? Because I don't want my kids to be chained to a nicotine addiction? It's not a bad thing, you know.

Lib50 is right, it is hard. We should help and encourage people to quit. But if you can't quit, don't get all nasty with the rest of us because we could.

Ms Jane...

You are one of those people who managed to quit and are filled with the righteous fires of the "born again"... And good for you. You did something that many of us who smoke wish that we we COULD do. But, frankly, copping attitude, and being snide and rude is not the way to go. In fact all it really does is make people like me really want to tell people like you where to go...

See now what's with your snippiness?

Are you not one of the 'born-agains'? Are you not a former smoker that's now telling current smokers what a bad and nasty thing they're doing is? Sorry if my words weren't PC enough for you. But you really aren't any different than the former addict that found religion and is now preaching to current addicts to 'change their evil ways'...

You fault someone who was able to quit?

Not at all. In fact, I think it's great. But I don't need your opinion on what I do with my body. Let's switch to the food thing again, shall we? Let's throw exercise in, too. I'm willing to bet you eat worse than I do and don't get the exercise I get. Should I tell you that you are slovenly, prone to cravings and out of shape and that if you want to continue 'destroying yourself' more power to you?

Because I don't want my kids to be chained to a nicotine addiction?

Have you seriously raised your kids to be that codependent? Wow. Ya know...this is the second time you've brought this up. You blamed your parents for the fact that you're a smoker. Now you're suggesting that your kids will be smokers if you are. I have an 18 year old. She's spent the past 6 weeks running two miles a day, doing 30 push ups and 70 sit ups daily in boot camp. She never smoked in her life. Not so much as a drag of a cigarette. I guess some of us raise our kids to make their own decisions rather than mimicking us.

Not at all. In fact, I think it's great. But I don't need your opinion on what I do with my body. Let's switch to the food thing again, shall we? Let's throw exercise in, too. I'm willing to bet you eat worse than I do and don't get the exercise I get. Should I tell you that you are slovenly, prone to cravings and out of shape and that if you want to continue 'destroying yourself' more power to you?

WRONG!

I lost 75 pounds about 13 years ago. I'm now a fitness instructor at a gym. I do about an hour of cardio every day and weight training 4 days a week. I'm going through a program now to teach a strength and conditioning class.

You blamed your parents for the fact that you're a smoker. Now you're suggesting that your kids will be smokers if you are.

The statistics state that if one or both your parents smoke you have a better than 50% chance of becoming a smoker. Both my parents smoked, and of all 6 kids in my family 5 of us became smokers. Only one of us has been able to quit (me).

My parents smoked around me my whole life. I never had a chance. I was already addicted before I ever actively smoked.

Most smokers start before they are 19 years old. Tobacco companies target kids as new smokers. If you can make it into your 20's without starting to smoke, you are significantly less likely to have a lifelong addiction.

Again, I'm not making fun of anyone, I'm not being self righteous. I used to smoke, so I KNOW how hard it is. I'm just stating the obvious.

See now what's with your snippiness? You fault someone who was able to quit? Why?

I quit four years ago, but I still feel the same about smoker's rights now as I did then. I fully support smoking being up to property owners. I fully support people's right to smoke in public.

truth is, Ms Jane, I grew up in a house where both parents smoked. I didn't start smoking till I was 22, when my husband went off to invade Grenada... It was either smoke or drink. Since I knew that alcoholism ran in the family, and I understood the devastation that it could cause, I chose smoking to calm my nerves... that was 25 years ago...

6 children, 5 grandchildren to my credit - I am healthy, I work, and yes, I still smoke. I do this, knowing the damage that it does to my body, and knowing that nicotine is more addictive than crack cocaine.

I do not smoke in the house, I do not smoke around non smokers and I try to be a polite smoker. But I'll be DAMNED if I will be vilified by a born again non smoker for being a smoker.

I lost 75 pounds about 13 years ago.

Woo-hoo! Here's my chance to throw it right back at you janey. Tell me how you like it, OK?

So you were such a fat slob that you had to lose 75 pounds? Wow. You were a real porker. Why jane....how in the world could you treat your body so poorly that you let it get in that condition to begin with? Were you lazy? Don't you know that it was unhealthy for you to get so fat and gross? (Tilting nose to the sky)...I never had to lose 75 pounds. I never had a problem with weight. I always ate healthy. I overcame where you failed. I am svelte enough to have my picture on my avatar.

How's it feel, jane? Did you like that?

Again, I'm not making fun of anyone, I'm not being self righteous

Making fun? No. Being self righteous? Yes indeedy. What's sad is that you don't even realize it.

You sing in one note, jane: "me me me me me me"

do not smoke in the house, I do not smoke around non smokers and I try to be a polite smoker. But I'll be DAMNED if I will be vilified by a born again non smoker for being a smoker.

Applauding wildy! =)

YeeHaw.........right on!!!

Wow. You were a real porker. Why jane....how in the world could you treat your body so poorly that you let it get in that condition to begin with?

Well, first I got pregnant. Then I quit smoking. Remember back when smoking was encouraged among women as a way to control their weight? Fortunatly I didn't buy the scam and fall back into it after my baby was born.

You sing in one note, jane: "me me me me me me"

I hear the song, but its your voice singing it.

Again, sounds like you're just projecting your own feelings onto someone else. Like I said, I don't care if you smoke. Go right ahead. Have at. Just don't complain about the consequences as a result of it.

So far, the most self-righteous people here have been the smokers.

Who ever said anyone was complaining of the consequence that could or might be.....we are complaining of the consequences that are happening now....our cival rights. Geeeeesh. Have you not gotten yet what the real focus of this whole thing is? Apparently not. Really sad for a seemingly intelligent person and good debator. I for one, in the medical field am fully aware of "what could happen", but I can't and won't live like that....I live each day the best I can and do a damn good job of it. I could care less about 10 years for now, cause there are no guarantees. Blaming cigs is such a cop out. Sounds like you are hardened you gave em up, sorta like my ex, whom I left who couldn't allow me to be me....because he was a coward. A highly educated, low life, scum wife beaten, sex addicted maniac, that works in the White House, 4 marraiges l later and God knows how many kids he's got out there...and still has no freakin clue. Yea, I want to be like him and not smoke....Ha, Hek

Who ever said anyone was complaining of the consequence that could or might be

Have you not gotten yet what the real focus of this whole thing is?

Yes, I think I do. The whole point of the article was to complain about taxes charged on legally smoking cigarettes. If you choose to smoke, you pay taxes. If you choose not to smoke, you don't pay taxes. If you don't like the taxes, either quit smoking or change the tax law.

I do care about 10 years from now. That's why I live each day the best I can and do a damn good job of it. Thank you very much!

Interesting. I'm "seemingly intelligent and a good debater" as long as we agree. But if we don't, then, of course, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Completely missed the point of all of this. I have to say you are hell bent on being a non- or ex-smoker and it's gotten in your way of what the issue is truly about. Of course I care 10 years from now...but I don't dwell on the day to day. See, I have faith in God...some people don't, it's another choice we have. I happen to accept ALL responsibility for what happens to me, unlike what I was shown or what I see these days. It's truly sad. Our county is in a disaster and you want to harp on cigs...come on, there are far more serious issues to be taxing and dealing with then us measly ole smokers. We don't hold up banks, murder, rape, or commit treason to smoke. We just live normal lives. OMG. You have me at respect for you intelligence, but sometimes, sometimes, intelligence is over rated........common sense is missing in so much these days. Even an educated person like myself, living simple can see that. Ignoring the real picture of what is really happening would be courageous rather then attacking something so trivial as this......a cig, come on. Hell I can't go shopping or walk down a street without being accousted in a parking lot, my own home ,and for a long time, family. Now our government won't even help us. Really sad:( I apologize if I sound harsh, I don't mean to be, I'm tired and I'm fed up with the blame game, hear it every night. Most especially the last 6 night shift I pulled...how it's everyone's else's fault. It is not. The people that are profiting from all of this are the ones to point the finger at. Please don't take me personal.....I'm frustrated with this whole issue....it's hard for me to explain, as I see it from a completely different perspective....the medical field.....and no it has nothing to do with cigs...ironically. Hek

Thanks Hek, I do appreciate that.

The only conclusion I can come to is that you folks are totally reading into my comments things that are not there. There just doesn't seem to be a way to talk about it. You seem to see everybody as being out to get you. You are determined to see attacks from everyone. I'm not "hell bent" on anything but you don't believe it. And nothing I say will change that.

The only thing I can say for certain is that smoking for 40 years killed my mother. It was slow and tortuous (to her and us) and devastating to watch.

I watch people "die" every night, horrible deaths, and only 2, yes two were directly related to cigs. We had a 23 year year old with lung cancer die on us once, she was one of the 2. Well her family went ballistic and blamed the cigs...she was pre-disposed to her cancer due to her family's lifestyle. I walked out in the hall and said to them "Have you no class, have you no faith?" Do you not thing that all of us have a mission here on earth. Maybe it was her mission. Maybe she saved a million lives you'll never know about...they stopped @!$%#ing and blaming really quick...while I was smoking a cig with them outside on the back dock. Way too much drama and they missed it too. In the end, they forgave her for leaving them so early and went to her room and thanked her for being an example. Good or bad, we all have our jobs to perform. No, I'm not religious, but I have a great faith in something greater then me, I call him God. I don''t trust man, man is selfish and mostly evil...(cept for my good friends), but at any given time....God is the only one I turn too. I am okay with that. That is my peace. So, I just want people to leave me alone. Permanently...cept they got sumthing good to say. Ya know? I hope you get me. I'm a good person. Hek. Why can I say that? Cause I could have gone a different road and choose not too....so cigs are insignificant and trivial to me. Hek;)

A couple of my friends have said, "Trish", you are ahead of your time", and I say "no, I'm back to basics...what we've had all along". I'm complicated, but I can break it down pretty simple. I hate complications, it takes all the fun out of life. Respectfully, Hek

The only conclusion I can come to is that you folks are totally reading into my comments things that are not there.

Oh? As I said, you sing in one note. "me me me me me". Take a look at post 10.29 and how many times you used "I". Interestingly enough, every time you use "I" there si something glowing and boastful afterward. Everytime you use the word "you" it's to condemn. How is that NOT supposed to give off the air of arrogance and a holier-than-thou, 'born again' attitutde?

Bottom line...it is OK to not enjoy paying 125% tax on something. In fact, it's normal to be upset about that kind of excessive taxation. It is OK to enjoy partaking in a legal vice. Whether or not YOU consider the vice "bad" is of no consequence to me and quite frankly, people will ask for your opinion if they want it. The world does not revolve around your belly button, dearie.

Lastly...to borrow a page out of your book: You gained that much weight when You were pregnant? I was pregnant too. I ate right. I only gained 26 lbs. I went home from the hospital in my size 3's. YOU used it as an excuse to stuff your face. YOU let your weight get away. YOU put your health at risk and the health of your baby.

Are you getting the hint on how your posts come accross yet?

Janeinthisworld - here's the thing I want you to hear from me....Irregardless as to whether I agree with you or not is not the problem. You speak good words and you have an opinion worth listening too.....here's the difference.....I hate arguing and fighting. This should open us all up to a common place that we can all, I hope, make us think about all the options. Please don't think for one minute that I advocated "smoking" I don't. This is more about the "principles" of our "rights". It should never be about being angry with one another because we don't "like" it but just mind our own bus...ya know. I am replying to you as I have found you to be intelligent...the only people I will address....whether I agree or not...but we must find a common ground so that we can really get to the cure for all of us. Hek:)

On my short time here on the vine, with all my friends of many dimesions....only 2 have deleted me and I was heart broken to say the least. They were so wrapped up in their cause that it caused a break between us...both extremely intelligent and worthy of having as a friend. It still breaks my heart to this day, but I can't change people, I can only offer up my compassion when it's needed. I still "read" them and vote for them....and so it's all good.

Hek - FR sent, OK?

Oh? As I said, you sing in one note. "me me me me me". Take a look at post 10.29 and how many times you used "I". Interestingly enough, every time you use "I" there si something glowing and boastful afterward. Everytime you use the word "you" it's to condemn. How is that NOT supposed to give off the air of arrogance and a holier-than-thou, 'born again' attitutde?

This is wrong. I have not done that. I can't help it if you interpret it the wrong way. The only "mememe" comments, boastfulness, arrogance and holier-than-thou attitude I've seen has been from posters like you.

If that is the vitriol that comes from smokers, then I'm glad to be done with it.

in a minute kjm...I promise:

Jane -

You just did it again:

YOU did not do that (a positive). YOU can't help it if...(a positive) I interpret things the wrong way (a negative) I am boastful and arrogant (a negative).

As I said before...everything you write about yourself is followed by something glowing. Everything you write about someone else is a negative. It makes you look narcissistic.

Be careful about putting yourself on such a high pedestal, janey. One of these days someone will knock it out from under you when you least expect it.

Yes ma'am. (sheepish grin)

Maybe I just need a cigarette. =)

lol

Ok, Pat, here are some more I statements:

I wonder if I was so mean and nasty to other people when I was a smoker. I hope not, because if I was I am very ashamed of myself. I promise I will go and apologize to everyone who had to put up with my self-absorbed, mean-spirited and twisted attitude. I know that my addiction was part of my self-centered demeanor and contributed to my ugly behavior.

Jane?

Peace, love and joy.

Pat N and Jane... Give peace a chance!!! lol :p

So I was walking along of the vine and stepped on a big old peace, I think somebodies CAT left it behind. JJ

Ok, I'm done too.

Yeah KJM........I hope you adjusted your 'ignore' button.....I think I'll do the same as Tyler suggests. I've never done it, so it will be interesting to see how it works :)

I understand how you feel KJM, especially when it's your article. I like your moderating, at least you get involved in your articles and respond to everyone. I don't know how we're supposed to respond to insulting comments anymore. I just got back from a day suspension for arguing with a very insulting troll, so even though I should have ignored him I just couldn't.

Standing up in front of Smokers Who Like to Smoke Anonymous... My name is Mrs. D and I'm really tired of being treated like I am out to destroy everybody in my path. However, I at all costs, must respect those who degrade me. Thank you.. WE all get it from the judgemental's. I needed that refresher lesson but, can I please request, from those who know better how to run our lives, that as Americans, can we please come out of the shadows? We have been put in our place... so why the continued anger? JMT

Great article kjmgirl. (((kjmgirl))))

I just want to put this out there: sometimes insults are obvious. But other times they aren't insults. Sometimes we think we're being insulted when its really not intended that way. It happens, sometimes its unavoidable. I do try very hard not to intentionally offend anyone on the Vine and just try to make statements in a neutral way, but I apologize if sometimes my wording comes across differently than what I intend.

Thanks! :-)

Jane - I don't want you to go away....I think this conversation is good for all of us. You have made some valid points. However, your delivery is but harsh...almost like what I have mentioned. People treat us "smokers" as less then. The point I try to make to you and others, is that it is far more then that. I agree smoking is bad for us....but I don't and can't and won't living a life that forces us to make personal decisions cause we are put down or blackballed or thought less of. I believe in freedom choice, and with any freedom, yes there is a consequence - that comes with the territory. For Gods, sake we wouldn't even be here if that were not true. I don't hate you, just disagree mostly with how you come across, but I'm smart enough to know what your concerns are....the same as mine. Truly. I hope we can continue to discuss this topic effectively. Why don't you offer up some help to us, or those of us that are having a time quitting this habit...nothing has worked for me. That would be a great start. And then, share the good thoughts you have for doing so. I would be much more willing to adhere to your comments. I think I'm a really reasonable person, open-minded and yes, opinionated, but I would never try to hurt anyone. Sincerely Hek

TheJonesGirl was one of those friends that broke my heart. Another very intelligent person....who's only fault is her delivary...otherwise, she's pretty cool and I still like her. I still read her posts and comment when it warrants. I value all my friendships, whether I agree with them or not. But we must be cival. I feel I am. Hek

(((((((((((((Hek)))))))))))))) You are always a good read. JJ

I was kind of thinking of debating Jane myself for a second there, It probably would have went a little something like THIS.

However, your delivery is but harsh.

See Hek, that's what I mean by intention. I don't think I was being harsh, I was trying to be neutral. Unfortunately, in this type of forum, wording and phrasing can mean one thing to one person and something completely different to someone else. Some of the responses I received could be interpreted as far more harsh than anything I said. I try very hard to give others the benefit of the doubt when I'm not sure about their intention. I would hope the same courtesy could be extended to me.

I know its hard to be a smoker and have conflicted feelings about quitting. I was there once myself - really...I was. Even after all the years of having quit, I know that if I were to ever pick one up again I would be hooked - snap - just like that. It scary to feel that I might not have control over something that should be so simple....and yet, we know its not.

Peace to all. Including you Pat. ;-)

And Mightyj, I'd love to debate you sometime. Just don't call me "Jane, you ignorant slut!"

Just don't call me "Jane, you ignorant slut!"

SNL... I miss the "good old days"...

You and me both... I just lived through one of the most traumatic experiences of my life... my youngest ordered her first "adult beverage" legally... And I was there to see it... <sigh> I think I'm going to go curl up into a ball now, have a cig, and cry... LMAO

Janeinthisworld- I was actually going for funny. I don't call people names in posts and the three or four times I have done it in the last twenty years to somebody in person left me feeling diminished for having gone there.

If you truly want to see my beliefs on this matter I have written an article as well, I said I was going to do it to try to help some of my friends and while writing it just after an article like this one probably wasn't a good idea. This was the time I had for writing, we have unloaded into our new house and I don't have to go back to work just yet. JJ

Janeinthisworld- I was actually going for funny.

I got that. As soon as I saw Dan Aykroyd I knew where you were going. The Not-Ready-For-Prime-Time-Players were my favorite! It was funny! Thanks.

jane- We have a lot of fun on here. (:

PNV...you have this amazing way of making me feel slightly unstable every time I read one of your posts. =)

I'm thinking one of us needs a meds check... and I'm not sure it isn't ME!

PNV- I think I have found a tone and tenor for the situation. I was just hanging out with my friends staying well out of anything to nasty. I held my tongue the whole time she was going off and I have got it way personal for her since her gang collapsed my articles. I felt I was very polite in this article of my friends. I did have to crack a couple of jokes though, I did post that Jones the cat link at 10.51 but I didn't get personal with TJG.

That said I thought you took her on like you were the thread monitor and kudos to you for knowing how far to go. I would probably get myself suspended which in my mind would be a total waste of a suspension when I could be suspended for lampooning her to the point of making people spit up breakfast. So here is my tongue in cheek take on your sarcastic scorning of me in your last post JJ

AlphaOne - I feel that "is" the "bigger" plan. I mentioned the same thing and I see it all around where I live. Getting rid of the small and or private man's business and destroying the Middle Class, it's happening.

Getting rid of the small and or private man's business and destroying the Middle Class, it's happening.

Everone I know that is in the restaurant/bar business says the anti-smoking laws have hurt their business. Family ran restaurants are the heart of the free market I pray for all small businesses to be able to hang in there especially the family owned restaurants where the real flavor of America hangs out.

Also I want to take some time to point out the power of advertisement The ads for tobacco that used to be on TV and other media still has an effect on the public today. People believe things they see and hear especially if it is delivered over the TV because people who watch TV are already in a mild hypnotic state.

There really is a grand experiement going on with how the mind of the public is controled. How cruel it is that for many years ads ran that cigarettes were cool fun made you have friends then it was turned around that they coause cancer. It is very powerful stuff Our minds are very open to suggestion that much is sure. It really bothers me so much what they are doing on tv and how the public just eats it up. I think children's TV ought not be allowed to show any ads at all. I know it will never happen but, I can dream can't I?

Everone I know that is in the restaurant/bar business says the anti-smoking laws have hurt their business. Family ran restaurants are the heart of the free market I pray for all small businesses to be able to hang in there especially the family owned restaurants where the real flavor of America hangs out.

There were studies done here in CA and business went up in bars after the smoking ban. As for smoking in restaurants, NO WAY. I go to restaurants to eat and enjoy food, it is a fact that smoking dulls the sense of taste. Perhaps that doesn't matter at the places you frequent, with their cheap, tasteless fare, though!

Dining out became a real pleasure in NJ when they banned smoking.

Perhaps that doesn't matter at the places you frequent, with their cheap, tasteless fare, though!

Gee TheJonesGirl that seems a hurtfull to me. I am pretty sure you have no idea of what restaurant I may or may not attend and what the cost maybe and how much taste they have either.

I had to debate myself on if I should say something to you but I have noticed that you have gotten into attack mode when replying to my post before. Just because you cannot see me does not mean your words are not hurtful and I hope you find a little less hostile way to respond to my post because it is really not okay. Maybe you need to put me on ignore.

I cannot imagine a smoker going to any decent place to eat that isn't a chain as smoking kills one's sense of taste.

JonesGirl - wow, you are really being b!tchy today - what's going on? Usually, you have a clear logical sense of discussion, but today - BAM BAM BAM.

Even as a pipe smoker, I have a great sense of taste and enjoy going to a really, really great restaurant for a fabulous meal that I can absolutely enjoy without some bratty kids screaming, yelling, running to ruin my meal. Would really love to shoot their parents or get them banned from the state for life.

Yea, it's like walking into a PETA run restaurant.....feathers would be a flyin....LoL I just had to laugh. There are so many fanatics, but the focus is soooooo distorted. Everyone has lost sight of what is really important....that is what they want, mass confusion as to walk you right into the gas chambers again, unbeknownst. No different. Is that radical thinking, nope, somethings never change and history once again repeats itself. Everything we have fought for is crumbling. We all forget so fast. ho-hum It's all a mind @!$%#.

I cannot imagine a smoker going to any decent place to eat that isn't a chain as smoking kills one's sense of taste.

So does artificial sweeteners and sugar!

Well I guess because you haven't been very many places or even out of the country. I think chain restaurants were amoung the first to ban smoking though. My experience is that local family ran business catered more to smokers. This one restaurant was so popular and the non smokers used to complain to high heaven on the way to the non smoking section. The food was great and it was a very busy restaurant the smoking section was every bit as full and large as the non smoking section at slow times the smoking section would be more full.

I remember when I was younger and restaurants first started having non smoking sections the servers never wanted to have to work in non smoking because the people did not tip as well and more likely to have messy, screaming children.

This is a freedom issue if a restaurant or anyvother business wants to allow or not allow smoking, children or any other group they should be able to do so it should be left up to the owners. People who own small business pay taxes and for licenses, they employ people and support merchants who sell to them. In a country that is supposed to be about freedom I think the smoking regulations are just another way of kissing freedom goodbye. Government regulation does more harm than good when it comes to freedom.

Lisafrequency - You got that right! You know what's really a pisser.....the LIES. They keep shoving @!$%# down our throat, like the caffeine issues, sugar and all that crap...and the only one making it bad...........is our Government. I'm so sick of trusting what we are and aren't suppose to do, it changes daily...so I choose to do my thing. Then I can't blame anyone, but make the best of a good or maybe a bad outcome. Life is a risk....there are no guarantees, like I have said...I'm even lucky to be here. Hek. And, I trust, as I always say, no man but God. He is my savior in every way. Hek Oh, and here's another enlightening thing I say......I am not afraid of my time...I welcome it graciously...I'm more afraid of this place we call life and all that it throws us. Well, I take that back, not Life, but People. Just sayin. Man is our own worst enemy, not cigs or anything else....just the greed from man.

Actually, it is an issue about protecting employees from chemicals, just as other chemicals cannot be used in workplaces. But I'm not all that shocked that you aren't aware of the WHY of no smoking laws in bars and restaurants, it would make it that much more difficult to play the victim as your little clique does so well, from you to Hek, to PatN.

You sound like marxist Nancy Pelosi to me.

The more "protection" the government offers to the people the more freedom is encroached . If I wanted to work in a restaurant that allows smoking wouldn't the resposibility be on my shoulders? Does the individual no longer have rights in this country?

Maybe one day TJG there will be something you do that becomes overly legislated and over taxed but, there will be no one available to defend your rights as an individual because they were taken out by people like you.

I've WORKED in some of the best restaurants in the country... French chefs are a BITCH... they throw things and swear at you in French... fire you one night, and you are back on the job in the morning... GOD I love my job... and the tasting menus are INCREDIBLE!

There's a story about Anthony Bourdain and a 20 course tasting menu... Chef Bourdain was an unrepentant smoker (2 packs a day at the time), and Thomas Keller (the chef/owner of French Laundry) created this INCREDIBLE tasting menu... that included a mid meal coffee and cigarette... a coffee custard, infused with tobacco...

TJG wouldn't know The French Laundry if it hit her in the face... Just let her go... As Ive said in many posts here before, I work in the restaurant industry, and I don't smoke while I'm working... I'm way too busy, usually waiting on whiney non smokers who don't tip worth spit... or cooking for them, while they change the menu beyond recognition.

http://blog.tortoricipr.com/2010/02/03/osha-sets-safe-levels-of-secondhand-smoke.aspx

OSHA has established safe levels (otherwise known as permissible exposure limits or PELs) of secondhand smoke in the workplace and those safe levels are up to 25,000 times higher than are normally found in bars and restaurants.

Chemicals are used in a huge number of workplaces - factories, repair shops, car painting, construction, mining, etc.

I'm way too busy, usually waiting on whiney non smokers who don't tip worth spit... *or cooking for them, while they change the menu beyond recognition.

I hear ya my experience is the same.

* denotes empathsis mine.

You know what's really sad JonesGirl..is I still like ya for your spunk...yea, I do. But like I said to Jane, your delivary is not heard. When you can speak in a way that teaches or relates...then more could or would hear. I happen to "hear" you, but you won't even give me a chance...your loss. But you will always have my respect for your knowlege only. You could do so much if you could just put it out there in a way that it could be heard by all.....Hek, respectfully. You know what baffles me sweetie, yea - I called you sweetie....is that while I should be angry, yea and I'm passionate about certain things, I have hurt so much that I have no room for anger. I feel your anger and I wish for you to just be more open to compassion. I'm not saying be nicey nice, just be fair. I bet if we met for coffee, we'd have one hell of a conversation. And I mean a good one! Hek

Thanks kjmgirl - I take all my relationships her very seriously.....you never know who you may run into someday. I am who I am here as I am in my personal life! Well with the exception of being a little more assertive when I have to be "face to face"....but what I say comes out loud and clear, lol

I like Hek... I liked her ever since I read her post about her stalking... she's AWESOME! and kjm... you are one of my new heroes...

Hiya Brite - sending FR, thanks for reading my article.....they are still looking for the guy! You know I mentioned a few times on this post, the focus needs to be on the people that truly cause others harm...not us "smokers".....but hey, they ignored this rapist for 6 months before they finally and embarassingly had to come forth and admit "they" weren't doing a damn thing about it....go figure huh? And by the way, I see you are fairly new to the Vine, Congratulations. I hope your time here is as wonderful as mine has been!!! Hek

Dining out became a real pleasure in NJ when they banned smoking

Yea well why is your pleasure so much more important than someone elses?

I think restaurants should have the choice to be smoking or non smoking because it is trhe way of freedom. How much freedom do we have to give up before everyone becomes uncomfortable? When everyone agrees that they are uncomfortable will it be too late?

I used to LOVE working the smoking section... I miss that... ah well...

But what I find is that the few restaurants that HAVE a smoking section now, they are well ventilated, usually enclosed, and toward the back so that the "delicate" non smokers don't have to be near them. and they tend to fill up far faster than the non smoking section. Go figger...

I feel kind of sorry for the restaurants that serve alcohol and allow zero smoking. I imagine they've seen a loss in revenue. Especially the waitstaff and tips.

It used to be that smokers would enjoy a cocktail or two and a cigarette after a meal. Now, most of us just eat and run so we can enjoy that after-dinner cigarette.

Here's an interesting little blurb that says smokers are the 2nd best tippers behind only other restaurant workers. Too bad the non-smoking zealots don't care about taking money out of the pockets of hard working waiters and waitresses. As long as their anti-smoking agenda gets advanced...that's all that matters.

http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/who-are-the-best-tippers-in-north-america-and-what-are-their-professions

As a server... I tip VERY well... even when the service is crap, and I judge service harshly. Just MAKE me wait for ANYTHING... And you're right... smokers tip WELL.

Non smokers, on the other hand... not so much, not to mention they want to change the menu. Everything is a special order. They make the kitchen crazy! There are two cardinal rules to a restaurant... don't piss off the kitchen and don't piss off the wait staff...

Understand... the wait staff is in SALES. It is our JOB to UPSELL. Don't treat us like we are stupid. We know the menu WELL. If we can get it for you we will... but for God's sake... if you are going to make me run my ass off... TIP ME WELL FOR IT!

OK... that was enough of a hijack... sorry kjm...

I'm in NC Tony, we got plenty of them around.....Thanks God! If you want me to find you one I will. I live in Tobacco Country, well, it use to be;( Ran those farmers off too....ironically, the hospital I work in sits on top of a Tobacco field donated many years ago by the only to treat the community "free". It was a county Hospital.....and somehow, funny how it became Private.....a simple technicality, yea right.

I'm down in Raleigh. We have fields on the outside of town that have stopped growing and so far 4 shops have closed that where near me. I know of 1 more but I have no idea yet if it's still open because I hardly ever drive to that side of town. I know I won't be going out that way until this Saturday and if that one is closed???

Meanwhile if I can't find one close to me then my next trip westward will be a stop at the JR Outlet to see if they have it.

Your right on the Hospital. Given out of the goodness of heart but went private out of the evil need for greed. AKA: the blood suckers need to bleed us dry.

You must know which hospital I work for.....and yea, Mr. Sandrock must be rolling over in his grave:( Pityful

Anyway, we have a few smoke shops around here! Let me know if I can help you out with that, I can at least let you know the names and where they are! Fay. has plenty. Since your so close you could go yourself, still cheaper even for the hour drive it may take. Hek

Well do. Hoping I can find something closer but I'll drop a line if I don't.

Rolling nothing...he is spinning so fast right now you'd think he was drilling his way out to the surface just so he could smack somebody :)

I wouldn't doubt it......it was never suppose to happen.